One of the First Digital Nomads From Africa: Agnes Nyamwange

Sneak Peek:

Agnes:    00:00:00    You have to be confident in yourself. Like don't listen to other people. Just have your own focus in your mind. And if people don't support your decision, stop telling them your plans <laugh> just to do it.  

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin:    00:00:40    Ola Mi Gente  <laugh>, Kristin from Traveling with Kristin here and welcome to episode 80 something of Badass Digital Nomads podcast. My lovely guest today is Agnes Nyamwange, who is one of the first digital nomads from Kenya. Many of you have asked me how you can become a digital nomad if you were born in a developing country, maybe with less opportunities and poor infrastructure, or if you have a passport where you need to get a visa to travel internationally. And so you're going to love today's episode because we get into that. And I met Agnes on the Nomad Cruise back in 2018 and instantly vibed with her. She has such a genuine, bubbly, positive, outgoing personality that's just infectious. And she has been one of my very good remote friends ever since. Um, always checking in on me on Messenger and, um, in the Facebook group and in my productivity accountability sessions that I used to do every month.  

Kristin:    00:02:00    And she's just a great example of someone who has blazed her own trail in life. She's really stubborn in a good way, never taking no for an answer and just confronting and breaking down every roadblock in her way. Her story is super inspiring because she took the skills that she learned in her former corporate job and transformed them, inventing her own digital nomad job where she teaches life support classes online to healthcare providers. So she is a sole proprietor. Agnes has been through a lot, uh, some of which you can hear on another podcast she did with my friend Matt Bowles from The Maverick Show. But she doesn't hold back in either of our interviews. And in this one she talks really openly and frankly about her corporate burnout and how a visit to the doctor's office one day resulted in her sending in her resignation.  

Kristin:    00:03:08    The same day she even goes into detail about how many months it took her sitting on her couch to recover from burnout and how she's been able to creatively sustain the digital nomad lifestyle for many years, even after going broke a few times. So she shares some of the creative ways that she saves money while traveling full-time and which are the most affordable destination she's been to in the world to work remotely. And she also shares a lot of her tips for saving money along the way and also working and traveling through Africa, where she recently was the star of a digital nomad documentary that will be coming out in 2021. So get ready and thank you to my newest Patreon patrons this week. Christine and Eric and you too can join our Insiders Club for just $5 per month over at patreon.com/travelingwithKristin.  

Kristin:    00:04:18    I also wanna give a shout out to the review of the week from Nick Scurry in Australia who says, inspiring discussion about location independence. I love hearing Kristin's stories and interviews that focus on location independent work. As someone who's trying to get into this field, this podcast is motivating me to get started. Thanks, Nick, and good luck to you and thank you to everyone out there listening and sharing badass digital nomads with your friends and families and leaving reviews wherever you listen. It really helps the podcast grow and it also <laugh> more importantly, motivates me to keep going. So thank you so much. Enjoy. 

Podcast Interview:

Kristin: Welcome so much Agnes to Badass Digital Nomads podcast. Give us a little bit of a, uh, quarantine check-in <laugh> because it is, it is a Monday morning, uh, the first week of October. I'm sipping on some iced coffee here in Miami. Give us a little bit of a context. Where are you right now and uh, what are you do, what are you up to? 

Agnes:    00:05:35    Thank  you for having me Kristin. It's been a while. <laugh>. Um,

Kristin:  I know.

Agnes:  Yeah. So I am currently in Kenya. It's, uh, approximately f uh, 4:58 here in the evening on a Monday, which is about nine o'clock your time in the morning. And, um, um, I just, uh, finished doing my driving lessons for Kenya today.  

Kristin:    00:06:03    Oh, wow.  

Agnes:    00:06:03    So I didn't actually think that I needed it, but after taking some days of classes I realized I do need it. So, uh, that's what I've been doing. 

Kristin:    00:06:13     Are you getting your driver's license?  

Agnes:    00:06:15    Yeah, because mine from the States expired in May. And, um, I, I was just about to think about going somewhere to travel and then I realized my license is expired and I can't rent a car and I love my independence <laugh>, so I had to stick around and take some classes so that I can get the driver's license 'cause we drive on the wrong side of the road or right. Which have, so the left side of the road,

Kristin:  the left side.

Agnes:  and then also the roundabouts. And there's a lot of many things like if massive driving and all kinds of stuff. 'cause people don't follow traffic rules here, so.  

Kristin:    00:06:54    Oh gosh. Yeah. I was gonna say, I wonder if it's crazy traffic over there and driving on the other side. Well we were just talking before the podcast about how um, like you went to Kenya temporarily, but then the pandemic happened, so you stayed and I came to my home country of the US temporarily and then I stayed. So, um, how has it been living in, when was the last time that you lived in Kenya and how has it been like coming back to your home country after being a digital nomad for multiple years and after living abroad for so many years?  

Agnes:    00:07:31    Um, I guess it's not as, uh, smooth sailing. I'm not saying this in a negative way, but in terms of like comfortability, I think I've been gone a long time. A lot has changed, uh, including friends environment like, uh, where places that used to be there no longer there or there's too many people, too many buildings and it's just, I just didn't come back to the same country I left, uh, about in 2007, so.  

Kristin:    00:08:06    Do you feel like a little bit of reverse culture shock?  

Agnes:    00:08:09    Yeah, yeah, in a way I came to realize that like, uh, I thought I would be more comfortable than I felt when I arrived. Like coming. I've always come, but I always come for like two, three weeks and that's different because I'm coming to see family. So I was always doing things with people and when you're doing things with people, they tend to kind of lead you along so you follow their lead. But when it comes to you doing life alone, then you realize you have such a huge disconnect. So, um, and people actually here, uh, like can tell if you are, you've been abroad and you've not been here for a while. And not only I speak Swahili very fluently, but I don't know, um, maybe like, uh, my sister keeps on telling me that my accent, Swahili accent has changed. Which is interesting because I, in the States, I rarely spoke in Swahili because mostly I used to hang out with Americans. So I dunno how that happened, <laugh>, but she was saying immediately I say something like, um, someone can can tell I've not been in the country for a while. Definitely. It, it affects like everything. 'cause when people think you've been abroad, they think you came with a shitload of money. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:09:37    Yeah. Oh Yeah.  

Agnes:    00:09:39     Which I'm like, oh, I wonder, I wish they could show me where it's because I can't find it. <laugh>,  

Kristin:    00:09:46    You lost your local discount. No, I found that too. People ask, they're like, but where are you from? And they can't figure it out. And I think it's from living abroad for half of my life now and speaking two languages, and you speak three languages, it's like your accent becomes a blend of all the different places that you've been. And it's very, it's very strange. I have friends that have moved to the, to the UK and to Australia, and they definitely have a different accent when after a few years of living out there. So I guess that happens to everyone. We're somewhat a product of our environments, but I still think the pros outweigh the cons.  

Agnes:    00:10:26    Oh No, I-- 

Kristin:    00:10:26    Even though I also feel like a fish outta water. 

Agnes:    00:10:29    I would never give up traveling. Let's just say that right. <laugh>Like, um, I know Corona is a challenge right now, but I have to find a way to survive and be able to travel safely. And one of it is, uh, I just decided, you know, I'm gonna do the UK and um, island like this time, but I'm gonna stay in the same environment for extended periods of time. So I wouldn't go to London. I'll go to more and off, uh, like Wales or something and just stay there for longer.

Kristin: Right.

Agnes:  So that I'm also, I'm safer and I'm still able to just go on road trips alone, <laugh> and um Right. And I'm still enjoying it versus, uh, staying in one place. Like right now in Kenya, I've stayed in one place. I'm able to go around. Uh, the coronavirus has not affected Africa as much as, okay, I should speak for Kenya and Kenya as much.  

Agnes:    00:11:32    So, um, things were pretty normal from very, I think we had a lockdown for like two weeks that were really strict. And then after that everything loosened up. The only things that stayed closed were the places where people congregate. So the churches, the restaurants, the different, um, different, uh, environments where people meet that they limited. And then also public means they started, like if you, you sit two people in a bench, they put just one person that that has continued up to right now. And then also the mask wearing, which is, which is mandatory here nowadays. They've lost the rules, but it was mandatory here.  

Kristin:    00:12:19    Yeah. Well, yeah, things are changing a lot right now because Miami's wide open, or Florida is wide open again, so, we'll, we'll see. I wanna talk to you about some of your solo travel tips and upcoming destinations. Um, in the second half of the interview when we get more to travel. But I would love to get your, I guess your perspective and your experience on how you became a digital nomad just right off the bat, because so many people comment on my videos and, and listen to the podcast from 80, a hundred different countries. And people have called me out a bit on my own white privilege because even though I know that I've been working since I was 14 years old and I had the idea to live abroad, um, and I pursued that idea despite what other people around me were doing, and I didn't have a model for what I ended up doing and how I ended up living my life, I still can't deny that I was born in the US during the eighties, you know, during a time of prosperity in a middle class household.  

Kristin:    00:13:31    And that, you know, those conditions contributed to my ability to become a digital nomad or to live as an expat. And that not everybody had those same opportunities or those same conditions. And so when people comment from, especially from developing countries, they're like, well, how do I become a digital nomad? Or like, you just did it because of this. And I'm like, you know, I've took out student loans and I've been working for myself since I was a teenager and like I moved out at 17. Like, I have done all these things on my own, but I still can't deny that. Like, some other things contributed to that possibility. So how did you give us a little bit of insight into your background, like growing up in Kenya and also in your, your education like process, like how you went to college and then what gave you the idea of becoming a digital nomad especially, or even living abroad and going to school abroad and working for yourself.  

Kristin:    00:14:32    Especially in the context of what you were just saying, like coming back to Kenya and knowing that people can tell that you've been abroad, you don't necessarily fit in and everything. I mean, it seems like you had, we had a similar background then idea where we, we had this vision of what we wanted to do, but we couldn't find that example in our immediate context. And I think a lot of people relate to that. 'cause they're like, I have this dream of being a digital nomad, but like nobody I know is doing it. No one around me supports it. Like, yeah. How did you get here <laugh>?  

Agnes:    00:15:05    Um, let me fast, uh, start by addressing the white privilege thing. So, um, about white, I think, uh, uh, where people don't, don't understand, especially coming, uh, let me speak for Africa or at least for Kenya, is, uh, what people don't understand is, uh, the fact that you live abroad or you were born in America doesn't really necessarily mean that you grew up with money or you grew up with opportunity, right? It doesn't matter whether you are black or white. Of course there's those, uh, there's the context of the racial disparities in the US where like white people are more likely to get certain jobs, certain opportunities just based on their skin color and their background. Uh, that's there. But I don't think a lot of people understand that there's a lot of white people who don't have the opportunities that you have. And it's not because, uh, um, like not everything is, even just because you are white, you already have a ticket to that <laugh> to whatever opportunities.  

Agnes:    00:16:21    So, um, and I'm saying that because I stayed in Minnesota long enough to understand the culture and I hang out with enough Americans, and I mean like, not the, like the Americans that live in the metropolitan area are more jaded, should I say jaded, like, uh, they're more,they're more exposed to different cultures versus the ones who live in the rural areas. And I did rural and I can tell you sometimes you'd get to a place where it's their first time they've seen a white person and their first perception that they have about you is based on what they've ever either been told or from the TV. They don't really have anything to go off of. So, uh, you kind of represent the first image they can really tell about a black person. So if you are nice, they'll treat nice, uh, the next black people well, because they think everywhere a black person is nice, you know, like that kind of thing.  

Agnes:    00:17:25    So I've seen people who live in poverty and really terrible conditions, even, uh, uh, Africa level conditions of poverty. And yet they were America, they grew up, they grew up, uh, they were born and raised in America. They just don't have the same opportunities that other white Americans. Uh, and I'm saying this in quotes because, uh, it's always said, if you're white and you're American, you are prosper. You have to prosper because of course you have opportunity, but people don't realize, like opportunity does not come with being white. It comes with, in most cases hard work. If you don't work hard, you just don't, won't get it. so.  

Kristin:    00:18:13    Yeah.  

Agnes:    00:18:14    So--  

Kristin:    00:18:15    I guess I think of like, when I've traveled and I've seen people, you know, growing up in mud houses with no electricity and no windows or growing up in landfills and slums, and I'm like, how do they get out of there and like, it's harder, you know, it's, it's a lot harder from starting from there. Um, and you know, actually one of the things that I realized a couple weeks ago, I was making a video, it was last week actually, I was making a video about a scratch off map and like all of the places that I've been, and I realized that I really haven't been almost anywhere in Africa besides Cape Verde. And I don't know what the reasons for that are. I think maybe I was overwhelmed with such a huge continent with so many countries and I didn't know anyone there and I didn't know, you know, where to go, which countries are safe.  

Kristin:    00:19:04    It was just, you know, a lot of research and very wide open spaces that take a long time to travel through or you have to fly everywhere. And so, um, you know, I don't have much experience there and like the nuances of the different cultures and the different countries. But you know, we know from from statistics that a lot of digital nomads are more white men. For example, like there was a study by, there's very limited digital nomad research, but there was a study by the MBO partners that a lot of people cite because it's one of the only digital nomad like scientific studies. And it, it had like anywhere between like around 5 million Americans describe themselves as digital nomads. And then there's other studies by like remote year and people that have found that anywhere from 50 to 70% of, of digital nomads might be white males, maybe from western countries, like maybe from Europe and the US and Canada and Australia and places like that. So it just seems like it's, even if it's half and half men and women, it's overwhelmingly from, from  

Agnes:    00:20:16    Those  countries

Kristin:    00:20:16    These types of countries. And it's not, it's definitely not half women from Africa <laugh> so.

Agnes:    00:20:23    No, that's true. That's why the documentary was done. Uh, like they, uh, there's this digital nomad documentary that I think I you already know about. Um, they were actually looking for, yeah, we're gonna for, uh, digital nomad like digital nomads, African Digitals Nomads traveling in Africa and

Kristin: Right.

Agnes:  Africa travel is not easy. So I can't, I can't complain that you've not gotten to Africa yet because you know, the way South America it's third world, but there is a route like you, you know, you can just get there, get to a hostel and you'll kind know, find other travelers and find some direction. Africa doesn't, it's not that developed. So in--

Kristin:  Yeah

Agnes:  In that sense, like, uh, we, there's no trail. You know, the way people like, we'll go to Bolivia, go to like, there is a trail that everyone follows when they go to those places,  

Kristin: Right.

Agnes:    00:21:24    In Africa you have to create your own. And in that way it's not cheap because they're used to catering to elite tourists, people who have a shit load of money to spend. They came here on safari, they came on a private jet and what

Kristin: Honeymoon.

Agnes:  So going on safari here, it's crazy expensive. Um, you know, like I met in South America, like a lot of children, um, not, I shouldn't call them children, but people who have finished high school, who have taken a break, uh, for a year, what do we call it? <laugh>

Kristin:  the gap year.

Agnes:  A gap year to go to, um, to go to South America for that whole year. It's, they're doing that because it's at least affordable in Africa. You can't do that for a year. You are not even gonna wait, make it the first month just because the fact that you are white. And we were, we were colonized by the British and the people that come here, mostly elites or work for the UN like companies that, uh, pay staff, uh, pay for their staff members to go places. So people are brainwashed that way. The same thing like with I speak like I've been abroad, so I must have be having money. And so it makes Africa travel really difficult that way, especially financially. Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:22:50    So as you were, you know, growing up in your normal life in Kenya, what gave you this travel bug? An idea to live an alternative lifestyle? And then I wanna talk about this digital nomad documentary.But, um, yeah, let's get some insight into like how you made that decision, because I think that's where a lot of people get hung up because they're afraid to, um, you know, really go against the, the status quo in their home countries.  

Agnes:    00:23:21    Um, the first thing is I've always, uh, oh by the way, just, uh, my background growing up, we were not rich <laugh> by any means. I was lucky enough to go to, uh, private school for, uh, boarding school for, uh, schooling. But private boarding here, nowadays it has become, I feel a little bit expensive, but during the times I was going to, if you went to like Catholic school, they were affordable. Actually, it was affordable than staying in day school because in day school you had to go home and your parents have to provide your food, your everything. Versus in boarding school, everything, you get it like a package. So it was a little bit expensive than day school, but not that, not by, not by that much. So I came from that background and we didn't really travel. So, uh, and the reason for not doing that is we didn't have money <laugh>.  

Agnes:    00:24:19    So they, it wasn't like I grew up seeing people travel all over the place and I didn't. But the one thing I had always told my mom is I wanna travel. I wanna, uh, I remember saying I wanted to go to the US way before, like, I was younger, like six or seven <laugh>. Um, so I had that thing. And I think also the other idea is because our school had Irish nuns and uh, they, sometimes they tell us stories about like where they come from and then also from the movies. So I always had that thing at the back of my mind is I need to get outta here and go see things for myself. <laugh>. So that's, uh, kind of the background that I came, uh, from. And so the first thing when I finished high school, I went to Uganda for college.  

Agnes:    00:25:17    So that was a good experience because I was getting the exposure that I was craving. Um, and then when I got the opportunity to go to the US I was actually supposed to come to Florida. Uh, um, but my mom was like, her brother was already living in Minnesota, so she said she'd be more comfortable with me going to Minnesota. So I decided to go there. And I actually didn't stay with him for very long because he, with African tradition, men are supposed to take care of the women. And my, my, uh, mom's, uh, uh, brother had that mentality. And I had already done college. Like, I had already lived a free life, so I wasn't <laugh> it wasn't working. So in nine, after nine months I left. And, uh, I never went back ever since. I think I actually, uh, started talking to him two or three days ago. I mean, three years ago, <laugh>. Um, but  

Kristin:    00:26:21    So how old were you when you moved out on, on your own in Minnesota?  

Agnes:    00:26:25     Um, I was 23.  

Kristin:  Okay.

Agnes:    00:26:28     So I was, uh, um, so I decided, was it 23, 24, around that area, but I had only been in the US for almost, uh, maybe eight, nine months. I went in January and by August I was out. So that's seven, seven months. Yeah. Yeah. I was out and I was like, it wasn't easy. That was, I think one of the things, if you wanna do something, you have to be courageous because I was going into a system I did not really know much about my, uh, my uncle lived in the rural area, so I, I had never lived in the city, like in Minneapolis, St. Paul. And that's where my school was. So the moment I, uh, I got my driver's license, he wouldn't let me keep the car. So I had to give the car back to him. Thank, thanks to the American credit card system, I was able to get a, a, a loan from a friend and then get a car. I mean, a friend you signed up so that I could get the, uh, get a car because I didn't have any credit. Um, yeah, a credit rating of credit.

Kristin:  Yeah.

Agnes:  Like I had never had any credit. So they cannot just give you a loan with no credit history.

Kristin: Right.

Agnes:  Or I had no credit history. So, um, that's how I started life. And then I was, um, I actually, and students, by the way, students, and I'm not in the US now, so I can speak freely, <laugh>,  

Kristin:    00:28:02    That's so ironic but yes.  

Agnes:    00:28:06    Um, students in the US are not supposed to work. And if you work, you only work on campus and you are only, um, supposed to work for 20 hours a week and 20 hours a week is nothing because the jobs that give give better pay are only given to US citizens. So

Kristin:  Right.

Agnes:  'cause they, it has like some government funding type thing. So for international students, we were getting, uh, literally minimum wage. Is it 6.45 or 7.45, something like that. It does not change even after all this time. It's still the same minimum wage.  

Kristin:    00:28:46    Yeah, that's, that's tough. Because they're like, sure, come to school over here, but you can't work. And you can't make money and you can't get loans. And it's like, how do you even live? So that's, that's difficult to even start out with,  

Agnes:    00:28:59    To their defense. To their defense. They do check at the embassy. They do check to make sure that you can actually, you prove that you can actually afford. So, and I'm saying this because, um, uh, I hope some people who have not come to the US who are from African countries or third world countries can understand this part because I did not understand it going in. Because you are told, uh, like the, the, the, um, the statement, the bank statement that shows how much you have in the account. I used somebodies who, I don't know, my parents just found someone who had enough money, who had enough money, and then they were my uncles in quotes, <laugh>. So we used that statement at the embassy, and then I was able to come to the US. So the US already checked, they made sure I had the money.  

Agnes:    00:30:00    But did I, no, because the people that gave you the statement are not gonna give you the money <laugh>. So because that was not the arrangement. So when I got to the states is when I realized, oh, shoot, I'm not able to afford my schooling. Everything's so expensive. And so I did what all immigrants do when you don't have money is you work under the table. Well, under the table, you don't get paid. So well. The, the thing that helped me is if you are in school, you are able to get a social security number. So I was able to use that social security, uh, to go outside and work against the school rules. Because if you are found working out and no one really checks, but they do check at the border, they'll ask you, are you working? Where do you work? So if you're stupid enough to say you work outside of school, guess what? You're gonna be in the condition I was in in 2018 <laugh>.  

Agnes:    00:31:05    So where, like, where I got to Miami and I couldn't get in. So, but that was not for that reason. It was a different reason, but it's the same. Everyone follows the same process, be it, it was schooling or just anything. If they can't let you into the country, you go to that place. So, um, so that's how I was able to start working outside. And because, um, because I didn't, I couldn't change jobs because I knew I wasn't supposed to work there. So I worked in this same place for, until I got promoted to manager, like I was, and it worked out fine because I actually, uh, got to understand the American system and, uh, I was able to know like which cards I can play, which ones I can't play, how I, I can get in trouble here. And that. And then also, uh, by being a manager, I was able to get into the corporate world where I started knowing how things work. It was the best experience I could ever ask. I mean, it was a gamble, <laugh>, but getting there was not easy because I was doing a full-time master's degree working 10, um, uh, earning 10 bucks an hour in a private university. I remember my tuition was, uh, one credit was 550 something, um, US dollars. So, and I had  

Kristin:    00:32:36    And you're taking, what, 6,15?  

Agnes:    00:32:38    You have to 10, you have to take 10. Was it eight credits? But because I was on a cohort, I had to take 10 because the cohort took 10. So I had to come up with 5,000 and like, almost $6,000 in three months.  

Kristin:    00:32:57    So there's a big discussion in the digital nomad community as like, when you become a digital nomad, how far in advance do you plan? You know, should you take the leap quote unquote. People love to say like, I took the leap, or I bought a one way to get to Bali or to Chiang Mai or whatever. And that's, there is no one right way to do it. But the more people that I've had on the podcast, the more I've learned that a lot of the long-term successful digital nomads put themselves in that position of discomfort where they didn't know exactly how they were gonna figure it out, and then they did it. Yeah. And they made it work, and they came up with the money, or they found a job, or they figured out how to get their business to work. And when I think back on my own journey, it's kind of how I did it too.  

Kristin:    00:33:48    Because I went into living in Costa Rica as a recent graduate from my master's program, but with a lot of student debt with no money. I think my mom gave me $200 and I was like 22 years old, and I flew to Costa Rica and my employer paid for my plane ticket, and then it was like sink or swim. Like I had to, they were gonna give me a thousand dollars a month salary, but like imagine having an MBA and being like, am I gonna live on $12,000 a year? I was like, no, I have to find a way to figure it, make more money. And so I did. So it's like, and then that was in 2005. So it is interesting to hear these stories and see that you don't have to have everything figured out, and you don't have to have all of that money saved.  

Kristin:    00:34:38    Sometimes you do need to push yourself to take the risk and work it out <laugh> when, when you get there, because there was no way for you to have planned what was going to happen when you were back in Kenya. No. Like, you had to get to the US first, you had to put yourself in that physical place. It's like you need to have physically put yourself in a place so that you can be location independent later. And at that point, you probably didn't even know what a digital nomad was Or that you were gonna do this. So I always tell everybody to like, to get more info on your background in bio, to check out your episode of the Maverick Show with Matt Bowles, because he did such a great job of digging into that. It's like a 90 minute episode, and I don't wanna, you know, copy, copy his interview.  

Kristin:    00:35:26    So I'll, I'll link to that one in the show notes. But for this, for our interview, I'm gonna fast forward. Okay. Um, for people like when you were working in corporate America, which you give lots of crazy stories about in Matt's episode. Yeah. At what point did you decide, I don't want to work for <laugh>, you know, I don't wanna work for these people or in this office anymore. What, like, what made you decide to work for yourself and to turn your business into a remote business? How did you shift from like, a regular corporate job in middle America to like running your own location independent healthcare business? Okay.  

Agnes:    00:36:10    Yeah. I was, uh, um, I, when I was working, I was working so many hours, and I'm a workaholic actually. If I set myself to any projects, I wanna see it through come day, come sunshine. So, and actually that's a good thing to have in America because you're gonna climb that ladder really fast. But is it healthy? No, I would not recommend it for anyone. So, um, when I realized I'm super unhappy, of which, um, I, I didn't realize, like I was in a gynecologist office and they asked me, how are you doing today? And I didn't realize how miserable I was <laugh> until that moment is, I think when you're so focused on other people and other things, you don't think about yourself and your all wellbeing. Well, it's obviously I had been miserable for a long time, but not feeling it because I, I was focused on other things.  

Agnes:    00:37:13    But the moment the questions came to, how are you doing today is when I finally thought about myself, <laugh>. And then I realized I was miserable. I cried so bad until the gynecologist

Kristin:  in the doctor's office?

Kristin:  Yeah. The gynecologist didn't know. Oh my, oh, for the first time in a long time, I realized how miserable <laugh> I'm, and don't forget this is, I'm someone who used to take my laptop to a bar counter so that I can have my beer as a, like, I had zero social life, like, per se, because anytime I was anywhere, you bet I was working either on my phone or on my laptop. So,  

Kristin:    00:38:00    So how old were you at this point? 

Agnes:    00:38:03    Um,  I was, it was in 2014. And, um, five years ago, six years ago, actually, I was 31, around 31, 32.  

Kristin:    00:38:17    So you had been working already. You had gone to school in the US and had been working for quite a few years in the corporate world before you had this this point. Yeah. Which I think a lot of people can relate to where, you know, you see people at the coffee shop, how are you, oh good. You know, blah, blah, blah. And then, then one day someone really asks you like, how are you? And you just break down.  

Agnes:    00:38:40    Yeah. It was -- 

Kristin:    00:38:41    <laugh> because it, it like sinks into a different part of your  --and you're like, wait,

Agnes:    00:38:44    That day I was focusing on me. You know, it's, it's a normal thing in the US like, you're not gonna, you're not, and especially in Minnesota, like it's very rare that you'll ask someone, how are you? And they say, I feel like shit <laugh>. So I just, uh, I always have that automatic response that I give to everyone that ask me how am I doing? So that day it might have been because I wasn't in the office, so I didn't, I didn't need to have my guard. Uh, what is it? Uh, guards up  

Kristin:    00:39:21    your guard.  

Agnes:    00:39:21    Yeah. So I, I, I just finally thought about myself and, uh, actually I gave them 30 day notice that same day they did not believe I was leaving. And I was like, yeah,

Kristin:  Wow.

Agnes:  Two days before I left is when everyone was like, where's this, where's that? And I was like, I've been telling you guys for the whole month to know where things are because I am not gonna do this anymore. And on the last day I would, uh, I was driving the work car, I left my keys, the work phone and the car in the garage, and I told the person who was in charge in the office find the phone in the car, in the garage. I worked, uh, that day until almost eight o'clock at night just to finalize everything. And then I left it there and I was like, I don't know what you guys are gonna do, but I am done.  

Kristin:    00:40:19    You are like, but no longer my problem.  

Agnes:    00:40:21    Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, yeah,  

Kristin:    00:40:22    There is,  

Agnes:    00:40:23    Oh, go ahead.  

Kristin:    00:40:25    Oh, go ahead.   

Agnes:    00:40:26    I, No, I actually sat on that couch. I had this huge expensive couch, lived in a very expensive apartment that I hardly enjoyed because I was always busy working. I never really focused on my environment. So I finally got to enjoy my apartment, my beautiful couch, <laugh>. So I sat there and ate potato chips and the beer for like three, four months and then <laugh> and then, and I had enough savings because I wasn't doing anything with my money. I was always working, so I had enough money to sit around.  

Kristin:    00:41:04    Yeah. You know, there's no better feeling than when you finally walk away from a job that you are done with. And you get that just sense of relief and closure. And I think it is kind of a, uh, like adrenaline crash that happens after that because you realize like how uptight or how engaged you've been in that job for so long, that when it like all ends, it's just like, boom. And you just kind of get to fall into that rest. And sometimes it does take the, the version of sitting on the couch eating chips and drinking beer. And like, sometimes you just need that time to reset and then pull yourself back together. And I, I do a lot of consulting with actually listeners of the podcast that are trying to transition into a remote role or start an online business. And one of the things that I'm always cautioning people about is going straight from like quitting their job one day to starting their new job the next day. Because you don't give yourself any time to recover or reflect on what just happened, and you just rush into the next thing. It's, it's just like rebounding from a relationship, you know, you know, it's easier to just go to the next true person and not think about it and not sit with your feelings. But it's long term. It's, it's not, it's just not gonna work out. Not, yeah. You gotta take some time off before you start swiping, I guess. <laugh>. Yeah. So  

Agnes:    00:42:34    It's actually,  

Kristin:    00:42:35    So then you had your idea.  

Agnes:    00:42:37    Oh,  

Kristin:    00:42:37    Okay. Oh, sorry, go ahead.  

Agnes:    00:42:38    No, I was saying, um, after that for three, four months, they were the best times I spent because I think I invite, I finally invested on my, on myself. So I was able to think think and my mindset completely changed. I came to realize like, oh, I was working 24/7, but I was earning less than, I mean, I had a really good salary, like, go, that's why I had that expensive appointment, <laugh>. But, uh, but the thing is, I realized the number of hours I was working day and night, I was getting less than five bucks an hour at the end of the day. And, uh, and not, uh, and more like I paid with my health. I paid with, like, it was too high of a price to pay. So, So I, I came up with a, I'm not gonna work for someone unless it's worth my time.  

Agnes:    00:43:32    They're willing to pay for me fairly, and then also I'm gonna have work hours. So if I tell you I'm gonna work for you four hours, it's gonna be four hours and not an hour more unless we come up with an agreement. And once my work is done, I go home chill because, and work on myself instead of work, work, work, work. And that's where the idea of, I need to come because I'm not gonna do this punch in, punch out because you cannot control your hours and how much you work if you're working for someone. So I needed some independence. And then also part of it is, don't forget when I quit that job. That's another risk I took is I don't have paperwork to work in the US. So when I was living, I literally knew I was not gonna get an, uh, like I wasn't gonna look for another job, but I still,  

Kristin:    00:44:30    So you knew you had to be self-sufficient at that point.  

Agnes:    00:44:33    So I had not actually thought that far, but I knew like, okay, this is gonna be it. And I thought about it after I had given the notice. I'm like, Nope, I have to look for another way. And, uh, that's when I started thinking like, as an independent contractor, you really don't need to show any paperwork. And I already had all the necessary credentials that I need to start a business. And then the corporate savviness came in handy because now I knew what paperworks I need because I had done a little bit of HR, a little bit of this. So, um, I, I knew how to work the system <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:45:12    So yeah. I mean, necessity becomes the mother of invention as they say. And yeah. So, uh, okay. So we were saying that, you know, because you, uh, quit your job and you took time to like, think, that allowed you to come up with the next, I don't even wanna say it was a plan or a strategy, but even the next step of like, okay, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna work for myself instead of finding another job. Yeah. And so what was the actual business model that you came up with?  

Agnes:    00:45:43    So, um, I'm not gonna talk in detail about it just because, uh, um, there's a lot, like I said, savviness, <laugh>, so, right. Um, the company that I actually work with, uh, work with does, they don't know that I'm working from outside the US and I'd prefer them to not know just because, you know, the way, like people are awkward. Like all of a sudden you'll tell them you're outside the country, then they just start things. So I don't tell them that piece. Yeah. Uh, but the way I did is, uh, I actually did nothing to do with business, uh, like, uh, nothing to do with, uh, my education <laugh>. So I, I was doing CPR, so I bought mannequins. I joined, uh, some, uh, some organization so I don't say it. And then, um, and then, uh, that's how I started. So what changed is, uh, the way I changed.  

Kristin:    00:46:48    So you're teaching, sorry, you're teaching CPR online?  

Agnes:    00:46:51    Uh, not right now. I'm not teaching CPR, I did upgrade to more, uh, what is it called? Uh, it's a life support, but for, for professionals, like people, advanced providers, so, uh, doctors, nurses, that kind of thing. So it's not, it's the next level after CPR. So they're life support.  

Kristin:    00:47:17    Okay. But basically just so just for listeners, like your business is that you, um, teach life support online to people or organizations?

Agnes:  Yeah.

Kristin:  And you charge like a consulting fee or something like that?   

Agnes:    00:47:32    Yeah. Um, so let me word it in such a way you can present it <laugh>. Um, so what I do is I teach life support to healthcare providers, so nurses, physicians, and, uh, what I've done, because over the time I was teaching, uh, the basic CPR for, um, almost three, four years, um, when was the, like three, four years. And during that time, I got to advanced to, uh, to, uh, a higher level. So with CPR, you need a mannequin, you need someone to actually be there so that you can teach them. And when I started to travel, um, remotely, that was not gonna work. So nowadays, I only work with advanced providers because the advanced providers have already done all their legwork. Like for the initial stuff that I no longer need to be there, I just call them and then we discuss it over the phone or via zoom, depending on what works for them. And then that's how we get the class done. And I've gotten a number of agencies, staffing agencies for healthcare providers that actually only go through me to get their, uh, their employees trained. And that's how I would have been able to expand my clientele.  

Kristin:    00:49:05    Okay. And so did you start with your personal network or how did you get your first clients?

Agnes:    00:49:10    With my first client, it was in person. It's uh, this CPR. Yeah, I started with the CPR, then it built to the next level. So what made me go to the next level, I didn't do it remotely. I've studied, I studied first on onsite because, uh, most instructors usually do theirs onsite. And then once I was not able to work in the US anymore, that's where I converted it into a remote learning. And that's where I eliminate the eliminated the base, uh, like the basic, the people that require basic training, because that one requires hands-on. So I changed it.  

Kristin:    00:49:52    That's a great, that is such a great example because it shows how you can start your new business. It doesn't have to be remote. You learn the ropes, you learn what the clients need, what your customers need, what, um, equipment is needed, and then you learn how to make that job or that business remote. And when I think back, that's actually what I did also because I started in real estate where I was showing properties in person in these other countries like Costa Rica, Nicaragua. And then I started a relocation company that I worked in for a couple years with people in person one-on-one. And that's when I realized I don't even need to be in the same place anymore because I started doing it in different countries, hiring third party providers without having to be there because, you know, I'm only one person, so I can't be everywhere at once.  

Kristin:    00:50:46    And then it's like your brain opens up this other dimension of what if I did this completely remotely? What if I closed my office? What if I sold my car, you know, subleted my house and hit the road? So I, I think that's a great example for people that, you know, you just start with what you know, and then piece by piece very quickly, within a couple years you can end up fully remote. And then, so what were some of the, the first places that you started traveling? Oh, once you accomplished that? Um,  

Agnes:    00:51:20    Actually the first time, because now I had, um, I had the time and I had the money <laugh>, so it was great.  

Kristin:    00:51:30    Very important <laugh>.  

Agnes:    00:51:33    I had the two things that I need for travel. So I had the, and it was so funny because when I first, I just start, uh, fast started traveling with, while still teaching the basic. And that's how I started my nomad because I was only traveling based on the money I had made. So I would be gone for a month, I'll come back, work hard for two weeks and then be gone again. And that's where also I had the disconnect with my neighbors and immediate friends because once I started traveling all the time, I started realizing I'm losing touch with them like the rest of the people. So yeah, it's, uh, pro, but uh, my income.  

Kristin:    00:52:18    So you did like a hybrid lifestyle, you did like, like kind of take time off, go backpacking or whatever, come back, work really hard, save money, do it again. That's interesting

Agnes:    00:52:27  Yeah. I used to come with a focus of I am saving to travel. So whenever I came the two weeks that I'd be there, if I have time, I'll meet with friends, but I was focused to put all, everything scheduled in those two weeks because I've got to leave <laugh>. So, and it worked really well. I actually first started with Florida. I came to Fort Lauderdale and then I, I stayed with the retirement. Uh, the reason why I ended up there is there was a old couple that I knew, uh, who had a ti timeshares and they had a second bedroom. So that was a cheaper way <laugh> to get. I only had to buy the ticket and then food sometimes. And then it worked out actually perfectly well. And I did travel with them twice. I traveled, uh, in Florida. Um, that was, uh, uh, early 2015. And then early 2016 again, I traveled with them to Hawaii with the same arrangement. So I--

Kristin:  Cool.

Agnes:  Yeah. So I was able to travel.  

Kristin:    00:53:34    You're living the retired lifestyle as, as we all tend to do. 

Agnes:    00:53:38    And  that's changed my mindset. I'm like, I need to retire early. I don't wanna be like, my health is deteriorating. Everything is going bad. That's when I want to retire. Actually, uh, once I hang out with the retirees, I realized that's the lifestyle I want, but I wanna start it early. So my mindset, even after, right now, I wanna be more of a hobbyist, like do things that I want to do as a hobby versus having to work for the money, like focused on money every time. So part of it is being financially independence. I've given myself a two year goal of work, work, work, build, build, build, and then hire people to manage my stuff so that I can work on my hobbies and be retired. So, um, so that travel,  

Kristin:    00:54:34    This is becoming a theme here.  

Agnes:    00:54:35    Yeah. That travel, I, I've not, I saw, was it on YouTube? Someone was talking about it, they call it like FIRE or something like that. I was, I was surprised there is a name for it. 'cause it's just something that I have in my head. I'm like, I need to start doing things earlier <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:54:54    So yeah, the last uh, few episodes we did were about people who retired early, and then I did a aftercast episode just summing up some of the, the main ways that those guests saved money to retire early. Yeah. So yeah, it's just taking a couple years of supposed sacrifice, you know, you don't wanna sacrifice your health and your wellbeing and your personal life. But really, I would say sacrificing wasted time or sacrificing just kind of being busy or, or doing things that you're not necessarily saying yes to, but you're not saying no to either. Yeah. And, and taking that time and dedicating it towards building something that's gonna give you that sustainability and that runway, so to speak, so that you can take your foot off the gas a little bit and um, leverage that growth that you've created. And I know a lot of digital nomads that have done that.  

Kristin:    00:55:50    Um, Tom Kuegler comes to mind who's one of the first guests I had on the podcast, and he kind of dedicated a few years in his twenties to just like writing a lot.  And Anthony Moore, who was on the podcast, he did that as well. And they just wrote so much in a few years that now they can coast like Tom lives in the Philippines with his girlfriend and Anthony, um, is staying in Laguna Beach, California with his wife and baby, and he's golfing out in Laguna Beach. And you know, it's like they're having this amazing life now in their late twenties, early thirties. Yeah. Because they really focused for a few years and, um. So that's a really good tip as well. And then once you started traveling, um, full-time, I know that you have, you and I have both solo traveled a lot and, um, you know, people are always asking like, is it safe to travel by yourself, men and women? Definitely. For sure. People ask this a lot on my YouTube channel. But then also, I mean, traveling as an African in all of these different countries as a female, like, did you ever feel any kind of discomfort or discrimination or any struggles that you feel like some of your other digital nomad friends didn't experience? Or do you think that just part of being like a solo female traveler?  

Agnes:    00:57:18    Um, I think it's fair to say that I'm already desensitized in, uh, racial stereotypes. <laugh> like, <laugh>, like literally--   

Kristin:    00:57:31    Get around the block. 

Agnes:    00:57:32    You can come to me and tell me you hate black people. You, I would not care less. Like I, I think part of that is what has made me be able to move forward quicker because you have to have a, uh, I mean, and it's, uh, I know it's actually sad that we have to do this as black people, but I'm like, if I didn't have a thick skin, I would've not gotten the opportunities I would've. And part of those opportunities I got, I got them because they were people who were there before me that could not do it. And that's why they're not there anymore. So I just learned <laugh>. I just have a thicker skin form, whatever BS anyone has to give as far as the racial stereotype. So if I, I don't know whether I said this in Matt's podcast, but, um, like I got to Panama and did I say that so I don't repeat this?  

Agnes:    00:58:33    I don't remember. I got to Panama and I was, I didn't, you know, like the way nomads, we, we, we travel around, we don't dress very well, <laugh>. Like, we're not dressed up, like we're going to a office meeting or whatever. So I got to Panama at the airport and the lady looks at me, they're speaking in Spanish. And at that time, uh, <laugh>, so I wasn't speaking any Spanish or I didn't even understand. So I look at the other guy who was being told to translate to me and he is like, they said, you can't get in because you don't have money <laugh>. And I was like, that's interesting. Like, how did you know I didn't have money <laugh>, but it's very obvious it's my skin color. Apparently it was supposed to be broke <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:59:31    So so they just looked at you and  

Agnes:    00:59:33    They're like, yeah,  

Kristin:    00:59:34    she can't afford to come.  

Agnes:    00:59:35    I was lucky enough that I had my app for my, on my phone for my bank account, otherwise I, I didn't come with statements. I didn't know they were gonna ask me that because, uh, Kenya is not required to have a visa to get into Panama. So I figured I'd just come with my passport. That's enough, but  

Kristin:    00:59:59    Oh my gosh. 

Agnes:    00:59:59    Yep. I had to show, and then they were like, okay, yeah, you can come in.  

Kristin:    01:00:05    That's very offensive.  

Kristin:    01:00:08    But I mean, I, I think that like even, um, my ex-boyfriend, he kind of looks, he's, he's basically like, you know, one of those Bitcoin guys that like made a lot of money through Bitcoin and, and other types of businesses, but he would always dress in like a hoodie, you know, sweatpants. And he kind of looks like one of those San Francisco CEOs of a tech company. And so he'd be like getting upgraded to first class and stuff. 'cause he traveled a lot and, and he would even get profiled by the flight attendants. They're like, you know, sir, uh, excuse me. You know, because you don't fit the stereotype of like old white dude sitting in first class. Yeah. And here we are, this like 28-year-old couple that's like wearing, you know, our sweatpants and stuff just getting onto the plane and so, you know, didn't look like that person. But I don't, I don't,  

Agnes:    01:00:59    People -- 

Kristin:    01:01:00    Actually, I've never been turned away like that. Like, yo, you don't have enough money to come in here. So I guess you kind of have to take it.  

Agnes:    01:01:06    It happens in Dubai. It also happened to me. I was going to that, uh, Burj Khalifa, like that tallest building in the world. I don't know what it still is, but I got, I had ordered VIP tickets and I didn't have mine out and I had gone to the ocean. So my pants were half what <laugh> to their defense. So I didn't wanna go to the place I was staying because I knew if I come back, I might not be able to use my ticket. It'll be too late. So I came in and in a whole line of people, no one was checking tickets. All of a sudden they get to me, this lady comes in front of their line, spreads her hands, and I look at her and I'm like, <laugh>, there's like ticket <laugh>. So I show her the ticket, she looks at me, top to bottom and then lets me passe the only black person in the line or at the airport being randomly selected in a Boeing777. Uh, seven. Seven, twice in the same trip. Like I got  ---

Kristin:    01:02:13    <laugh>. Yeah. I think a lot of people can, can relate to that-- 

Agnes:    01:02:17    I got, I got out, like the unfortunate reality got out, I got out and I was randomly selected. They took me to the side, they asked me who packed whatever. And then when going into another one, and it happened to be the same guy that checked me on the other side, he just did this <laugh>. He was shooking his head.  

Kristin:    01:02:34    He just shook his head  

Agnes:    01:02:35    . I'm like, you also can see what's happening there because there is no way, the only black person that came from that flight is the one that's, uh, being randomly selected in this other flight. So with me, just of all with it, like, just gimme a few punches. Sure. <laugh>, I'll just.

Kristin:    01:02:55     but at the end of the day, like, you're laughing last 'cause you. Like, fine, you guys, you guys stick your nose up at me, you know, you assume this, that I have no money or that I'm in the wrong line or whatever. And you're like, I'm the one laughing last. 'cause I'm the one who owns her own business, who's living a digital nomad lifestyle, who's spending her time, how she wants, you know, traveling the world, doing whatever. And so, you know, at the end of the day, I guess you have, you have that and you could just roll your eyes and ignore those people. But it's still, it's still something that we have to talk about. Yeah. And we have to address, because a long time ago, I think it was last year, I had, um, a, a employee from Tortuga Backpacks on my podcast to talk about gender equality and uh, you know, women in the workplace, because I wrote a bunch of articles about how remote work could help women with either climbing the corporate ladder or making more money.  

Kristin:    01:03:48    This was my hypothesis. Yeah. Because we didn't have to deal with as much of the overt discrimination that, you know, a lot of the men, not all, but like a lot of the men who listened, they were annoyed with this topic or they were rolled their eyes like, there's equality and blah, blah, blah that doesn't exist. And like everyone has their own perspective, but all of the women know because we've experienced it less firsthand. Yeah. And it, for me, it started back in, in grad school when I was making minimum wage, working really hard at a startup. And like the other, like, guys in my class were making 2, 3, 4 times more than me. And all they had to do in their internship was sit in an office and watch TV all day and wait for someone to give them some busy work. And they, you know, so like, do you think that having started, you know, having gone from the corporate America workforce to owning your own business and being remote, do you think it's an advantage because you don't have to, I guess, deal with that as  

Agnes:    01:04:56    Even emotionally,  

Kristin:    01:04:58    Like the same kind of frequency,  

Agnes:    01:04:59    Even emotionally, It's good for my soul <laugh> because, uh, I, I worked for all of course all the investors in my workplace were men and the overall manager was a man. So even just getting a simple raise was like pulling teeth. And then all of a sudden I've started my own project. I can run my own hours. I'm free to go do my hobby stuff. And still, like, I'm disciplined with how I do my stuff, but I'm doing it for me and I don't have to deal with someone else. Uh, like being countersign and trying to tell you how to run your life <laugh>. Just because it's not because you don't have the capability, but just because they happen to be male or, you know, I, I just see, I realize that I make more money right now with comfort versus when I was in a nine to five, it wasn't really nine to five, it was a, a random schedule, but nine to five job, having to deal with all those emotional stuff that you have to deal with and have to, like right now I tell you I don't care. But over time it starts eating up your happiness <laugh>. And it's like, yeah, you can only, you can only, uh, be patient for a little while before you start realizing, you know, I can't do this.  

Kristin:    01:06:32    So, and, and it's kind of a, a weird situation because I think when I was younger I wanted to change this more. And when I worked in real estate, I, I, it was all men, but in the office and, um, I don't know why, but that's just how it was. And so I did feel left out, you know, they would go golfing or they would go to the strip clubs or they take the clients out, entertain them and whatever. And I definitely felt a little bit at a disadvantage for being a woman. And then I also had stuff where I had clients calling me in the middle of the night, you know, asking me to come to their hotels. And it was just like, how, how did this somehow become a factor in me selling a property? Like, I think I lost a lot of <laugh> business deals over these dis uncomfortable things.  

Kristin:    01:07:17    But it's not to say that, you know, men don't deal with things too. Like I've, I've been dating a guy here in Miami, he's from Puerto Rico and he had a really similar story as you where he came from a minimum wage job in Puerto Rico. I mean, a little bit different. So like, he was working for a really bad company, like international corporation with horrible working conditions. And he came to Miami to live with his uncle with no money, everything, put on credit cards, got his car that way, still in debt to this day, like six years later and had to like, work his way up through, you know, getting jobs and like construction and stuff in Miami and probably getting paid for much less than he was worth. And so I, you know, I know that guys have to go through these sinks too, but then both men and women of all different colors, like we come to this point, it's very interesting now where everything is remote and there's pros and cons to it, but it's kind of like we can avoid some of that kind of pain by being remote and putting that distance.  

Kristin:    01:08:20    But then it's also can be interpreted a little bit as an avoidance,  

Agnes:    01:08:24    Standoff fish  

Kristin:    01:08:25    Mentality where it's like, instead of changing the system, we're just like distancing ourselves from it so that we don't have to deal with that and we can make more money and have more happiness, but that doesn't mean it's gonna like result in this systemic change. So I always kind of feel in the middle where I'm like, I wish it was different, but also I really can't be bothered to like, confront it all the time because there's so many things going on in life. It's just like, you wanna just enjoy life and I,  

Agnes:    01:08:54    And  

Kristin:    01:08:54    Make it work. 

Agnes:    01:08:55     I, I generally think if you already have a problem in the office, even if you take it remote, actually if you take it remote, it'll get worse because there is something that's there with the face-to-face. And every day, I have to see you in the morning versus I don't need to deal with you ever anymore <laugh>. So, you know, like you do those email, the email confrontations, I've, I don't know whether you've, and I think the lawyers actually taught me this is emails are always supposed to be nice, like, make sure you cover your butt <laugh>. So if we're having a confrontation and I write an email to you, you bet it's not going to reflect exactly how I feel. Versus if you have a face-to-face, you are more likely, like even if the person doesn't tell you, you can tell by like body language and that kind and then, then it can make you prompt either to ask something or do something. But when you're like in Zoom, I can just watch you as a TV and then be wait for the meeting to be over so I can go back to my life. So it's a little bit difficult. Yeah. I just think if you're in an unhealthy work environment, get the hell out <laugh>. Unless if it's your company, unless if it's your company, then you have to do something about it because 

Kristin:    01:10:26    Yeah great.  

Agnes:    01:10:26    Yeah,  

Kristin:    01:10:27    It's good advice. And it's food for thought for people that are transitioning into this. Like, you know, it's just to think about what your goals are. Are you trying to climb a remote corporate ladder? And if so, what type of politicization do you need to engage with in your Zoom conferences? Or are you just trying to do your own thing and like, live your life and have more of like a hands-off approach and like low to minimum contact so that you can not be bothered. So, uh, everyone will have to decide for themselves, but it's something that's a, a current event and a current, um, a current topic for, for digital nomads and remote workers and people who work from home to navigate. So thank you for that, um, perspective. But let's, let's change gears 'cause I know we're running out of time. Um, I wanna get to some of your travel tips and digital nomad socializing tips because we actually met on the Nomad Cruise.  

Kristin:    01:11:25    So one of the biggest things that people ask me is how, um, how I make friends as a digital nomad. And you have traveled with a lot of people that we met on the Nomad Cruise. You traveled with Matt Bowles, the host of The Maverick Show, all throughout like West Africa, I believe. And you guys were filming with a, was it a German TV uh, company, like a digital nomad documentary. So walk me through, like how, how have you been able to meet other digital nomads while solo traveling on the road over the past few years? 

Agnes:    01:12:03    Okay.  Um, initially, like I said, when I was traveling, like I would be gone for a while a month and then come back and work. Uh, when I was traveling that way, I wasn't more focused in making friends per se because it wasn't my lifestyle but--

Kristin:    01:12:21    You were more into the adventure part of the traveling.  

Agnes:    01:12:24    Yeah, so I wanted to go see places. If I make friends, I make friends. If I don't, I'm not here to do that. Like I didn't have that focus. But when you have that lifestyle where you are traveling for extended period of time, uh, for six months, then it starts to get really lonely if you don't have any friends. So, um, my travel changed to that. Uh, I mean, my making friends changed that way. Initially I wasn't making any friends, it was just by luck. But nowadays I make it intentional because I need the social piece of it. Otherwise you just become a loner, which is fine if it makes you happy. But I realized the longer I don't talk to people, the more disconnected I am with the reality and everything else. So I try as much as possible to socialize. And uh, with me, the first time I started, I was just socializing with everyone. Um, like I go to a coffee shop, I socialize, I go to this, I socialize, then I came to realize that you invite a lot of junk into your life. <laugh>,  

Kristin:    01:13:35    It's quality, not quantity.  

Agnes:    01:13:37    Yeah, yeah. Then I was like, and nowadays I do intentional socializing, of course. Um, I am friendly to like the lady that serves me coffee or, you know, like just cut to see like, if I see you every day in the same place, I'll always say hi. I'll say a word or two or a couple sentences that's different. But people that I intend to stay with over long periods of time as friends, I tend to pick, uh, mostly co working spaces. Um, and in the hostels, the kitchen is a good way place to make friends <laugh>, because in the kitchen everyone's talking about everything. So if, uh, your conversation tends, I, I tend to be more even I'm interested more in what you are saying. Then after that, I'm gonna wanna socialize with you. And usually, like in places like hostels, most people are coming for a day or two or they're traveling over a, a certain period of time.  

Agnes:    01:14:41    So I will ask where you are going next. More than likely. Like if it's a, uh, along the way where I'm going, uh, if I get there, I'm gonna call you or text you and, uh, keep it that way. But most friends that I meet, I only meet once and then we, so we stay connected via social media. Uh, but I make less friends now, but more quality. Actually, most of the friends that since I made the decision is that I don't have to be friends with everyone. I <laugh>. I've actually made quality friends even during quarantine right now, we still talk, we still like, um, text each other and do, and some of them are digital nomads, but most of them are not. I might have met them like they were on their vacation or their gap year <laugh>. So it depends with how, how much value you add to my life and hopefully I add to theirs. But it's more selfish of making friends. But I realized the like, I wanna do it that way versus, um, just making friend randomly. It just didn't work for me. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:15:57    Yeah. Ironically in the digital nomad lifestyle, I mean, I didn't meet any other quote unquote digital nomads until I went to Nomad Cruise in 2018. And then I met like a few hundred of them at one time. But ironically, meeting people in real life has been a very effective way for me to make friends. Like I meet them once in real life. We have a connection, we form a friendship, and then we stay in touch. And then it could be years until I see them again, if ever. But we've maintained that remote friendship,

Agnes:   friendship.

Kristin:  and sometimes you can intersect with them in another place. Yeah. And so I've, I've found that that's, um, that's quite helpful. And you went, how many Nomad Cruises did you go on?

Agnes:  Uh, two.

Kristin: Did you enjoy that? 

Agnes:    01:16:46    Yeah. I went on six and seven. 

Kristin: Okay. you went on six?

Kristin:    01:16:49    Oh yeah, we were on the same ones. 

Agnes:    01:16:51    Yeah.  So eight, I didn't go 'cause I had that immigration issue, <laugh>, so I couldn't get into the US to make money. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:17:01    So for people who haven't heard of Nomad Cruise, it's basically a floating conference for digital nomads that takes place on a cruise ship. And it's just a normal cruise ship with other, you know, regular people there on vacation or whatever. But there's, it started with I think like a hundred people and then it's grown up to 500 people. And right now during the pandemic, they're not doing it right now. And actually the cruise ships, I think we're decommissioned somewhere in the Middle East. I saw a picture. But, um, I'm sure that we'll have more of those types of events in the future. But if you are just starting out,  And you--

Agnes:    01:17:36    It's a nice place to start.  

Kristin:    01:17:38     yeah, just to, to go to like, at least one digital nomad centric event. You can meet a lot of like-minded people and even if you pick up a handful of friends there, that can change your life forever. So, and it frequently will, whether you're introverted or extroverted. 'cause like a lot of digital nomads are quite introverted anyway, so. 

Agnes:    01:18:01    that's geeky  <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:18:02    Yeah. Um, so let's hop over to Africa. So you could tell us a little bit about, uh, what it's like traveling there. Um, you were traveling for three months with Matt and a few other digital nomads off and on. Yeah. Um, around Africa. What are some of the places that you went and what were some of your favorite places? I know that, uh, there's a really cool club scene like in Nigeria and there's lots of stuff to see, but I'm not familiar with that, that area of the world. So what are, what are some of the things that you saw and did and what could people, uh, maybe put on their bucket list?  

Agnes:    01:18:40    Um, I think, um, 'cause I was obviously, I'm a digital norm. I'm working in <laugh> and, um, traveling. Uh, I think, uh, most of the things in Africa, um, you have to try and find what you enjoy. It doesn't have like, you know, like I'm planning to go to London, 10 best things to do in London. You put online and it comes up like in the, um, in Africa, Kenya's a little bit developed that way where you could find some cool place, uh, uh, places to go. But it's because it also has a lot of experts. So they are already, like, there's bloggers that are always putting that information out there. But, um, but in West Africa, the problem with, uh, that is that most bloggers were actually people that owned the restaurants and fund places that we went to. I mean, not fun places, like the not so fun places that we went to.  

Agnes:    01:19:43    There were a few of them that were fun, but, um, but, so if you are looking for something fun, ask a local. Don't go off of reviews and stuff online because they're not accurate. And we, unfortunately, we did not learn that, um, in Nigeria where we stayed for a, for a whole month until the last week of the month is when we actually asked the local. And we ended up that week for almost three, four days. We ended up going to really fun places. And even the local places where we went to have food, the food was delicious. But the whole three weeks we were there, we were going off of, uh, the internet. And, um, we, we got, we didn't really get very good experiences, uh, compared to the last week. So, um, but, uh, some of the fun places is like a, like clubbing. With clubbing. If you go to a place where people are dressed to their nines, you are not in the coolest place. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:20:53    Okay.  

Agnes:    01:20:53    Like, they might have the biggest, biggest speakers and stuff, but they, uh, they have terrible drinks. And you get in there, everyone's sited down. It's just like a hangout type thing versus real clubbing. If you want to go to the local place, ask a local. There's places where they go if your drinks, oh, another thing also, you should know if your drinks are too expensive, you're not in a good place. <laugh>, they're supposed to be cheap 'cause it's a third world country. It's supposed to be cheap <laugh>. So if you're paying expensive, you are not in the best place. Like to get local good experience, just ask the locals and don't go like to a random person. You could even ask the gatekeeper or you know, like find a safer place, uh, a place to ask versus a random person who you could easily get into trouble with.  

Agnes:    01:21:51    But ask a local where to go is what I would say. But there was a lot of, uh, like we did a lot of clubbing and then the local tiny shops where you can go eat food, ask the people around there, they usually will know the local place, the place the food should be super, super cheap. If it's expensive, they try to Americanize or, you know, like make it to, uh, taste foreign and it tastes like <laugh> crap. Like I, at the moment, I stopped, uh, uh, I left the States, I stopped eating pizza <laugh> and asking for cocktails because the cocktails, oh. So I always try to look for the local drink in the place where I am, what people like, and that's what I go by. But if you ask them to make you like this, uh, drink that you like from abroad, they're not, they  

Kristin:    01:22:51    Won't know.  

Agnes:    01:22:52    No. But they won't refuse to take your money. They'll still try to make it, even if it tastes like crap,  

Kristin:    01:22:57    They'll pretend they know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I never heard people say like, oh, I don't know where that is. Or whatever. They're still gonna try to help you or they're still gonna try to get what you need. That's just not gonna be what you expect. But that is really good argument for slow travel. Again, theme of my life, theme of my show, theme of my YouTube channel because it, it kind of sucks when you're in a place and you don't find out until the end. Yeah. Like all the good spots. And so that's a good argument for staying in a place longer. Yeah. You just really get to find your groove. 'cause you can easily strike out for a couple weeks. Yeah. And not really f like, that's how I felt in Athens. The first couple weeks I was sick. I had like the flu or something.  

Kristin:    01:23:40    It was really hot. Our, we had problems with our Airbnb, we had problems with our internet. We were just coming off the Nomad Cruise. So it was like, people were just like, scattered everywhere and I couldn't find my flow. It wasn't until the second or third week that I actually started liking Athens. Oh. I found like the coffee shop. I like the juice bar, the coworking space, the restaurants. And I just started getting in a routine. And then when we were headed to Santorini, I didn't even wanna go because I was like, oh, I'm just now getting to know Athens. So that is something for people to keep in mind. But I guess what are some of the, um, the cities and countries that you traveled through as digital nomads?  

Agnes:    01:24:21    Um, we started with Nigeria. We mostly, uh, stayed in Lagos Island, which is supposed to be, uh, like, what is it called? Like trendy place. But I'm telling you, trendy in some countries it's just different. Like, you know, uh, because I'm, I'm, I'm from a third world country. I thought of seen everything third world <laugh>. And then I got to Nigeria. I got a different kind of third world <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:24:53    Did you meet any, any princes offering you money online?  

Agnes:    01:24:57    No, but everyone was dressed to through the nines. Like these places had like really fancy cars outside. And then you get in and you wonder what this whole Porsche, whatever is for, because it's, it doesn't reflect what you're seeing inside. So it was a, uh, it's like just a stunt <laugh> to get people through the door, but it doesn't provide quality. And then, uh, like one, I think I might have said this in that other podcast, we are seated, VIP means different in different places. So because they, uh, Legos has a really bad trash problem, you will literally get trash everywhere. And we came to discover why? It's because the drains don't drain when, so when it rains, it fills up and the whole road and everywhere is full of trash. Just all the plastic bottles and everything like just floating around. So once the sun is there or it drains slowly, the trash stays where it was.  

Agnes:    01:26:10    So that's why it just looks trashy. And then, oh God. And then we're seated like in a VIP where they've put a, like a glass, uh, divider so that we, so the, that divider is between us and the trash, uh, around the beach area, <laugh>. And we're supposed to watch the sunset and have, and they're like, no, you can't order, you only order bottle service. And the bottle, they charge, they charge so much. I mean, I have to give it to, to Matt because he, he actually negotiated the menu. I've never seen that in my life. <laugh> <laugh>. I always think like the prices, the menu is what you pay. But I discovered in Nigeria, now you actually can, but they were super expensive. So we are seated. I've never felt like I'm in VIP where I'm seated with this glass divider. There's trash in front of me, the lake, um, the lake in front of us, and then the sunset of like, wow, this is-- and very expensive wine. <laugh>  

Kristin:    01:27:18    Really feeling like a foreigner there.  And then co compared to that, what were you spending like in, in these local places? What were you spending on a local drink or cocktail or a, a meal?

Agnes:  Oh my god.

Kristin:  As an example.

Agnes:    01:27:34   We were, we were, it was going upwards of $25, $30 for just a meal. And then the drinks

Kristin: in Nigeria?

Agnes:  Yeah. The drinks were almost like 14, uh, 12 bucks for that.  

Kristin:    01:27:50    No, but in the local spot. 

Agnes:    01:27:52    Oh, the loc, oh, sorry, I misunderstood you. Yeah, for the local spots, it was super, that cheap. It was almost, uh, maybe a, a little over a dollar and sometimes even not. So it was--

Kristin:  For a meal?

Agnes:  Yeah. And we got, we got beers and we had to, we, we could not believe how cheap it was. <laugh>. We were, we thought that maybe the person did not realize that they gave us too much change, <laugh>. But it was--

Kristin:  Oh wow.

Agnes:  Actually like the price, because we had stayed in all those, uh, super pricey places. So we kinda had an idea of how much things cost. And then we come to the local place the final week and it's barely costed. I think between me and him, we had a dollar eat, like a, yeah. Almost a dollar for both our drinks.  

Kristin:    01:28:49    <laugh>. Wow. So that's like, that's really cheap. I don't even know if I've seen that. So. 

Agnes:  it was -- Yeah.

Kristin:   That's awesome. So you are in Nigeria. You are also in where? Ivory Coast. And what other places did you go to?

Agnes:    01:29:03     We left to Nigeria. We went to Ghana for three weeks. And then we did, uh, Côte d'Ivoire, Ivory Coast for, uh, four days. And then we went to Senegal for three weeks. 

Kristin:    01:29:20    And during this time, a, a team of like filmmakers was following you for part of it in Senegal. When will that documentary come out?  

Agnes:    01:29:30    Um, they were supposed to present it to the, what is it, Sundance something.   

Kristin:    01:29:36    Oh, The film festival?  

Agnes:    01:29:37    Yeah. In, uh, November. But they didn't hit the deadline. So they're supposed to do, um, to present it to the international film something in Germany. I don't know when that's gonna be done, but, uh, they're still working on it. 'cause they, uh, they usually ask for content sometimes.  

Kristin:    01:29:58    Do you know what it's called?  

Agnes:    01:30:00    Um, it's called Roamers. Roamers. 

Kristin:    01:30:05    Roamers, okay.  So  

Agnes:    01:30:05    It's led by--

Kristin:    01:30:05    A Digital Nomad Documentary. 

Agnes:    01:30:08    Oh,  go ahead.  

Kristin:    01:30:09    So it's a Digital Nomad Documentary called Roamers that's coming out in 2021. And it follows you guys traveling through Africa. And is there anyone else in it?  

Agnes:    01:30:21    Yeah, they did a, uh, they interviewed a lot of other digital nomads in different lifestyle. I think one they had said, uh, there's someone like living in a boat. There was a couple that they followed and another one living in some forest somewhere. So it's different, uh, types of digital nomad.  

Kristin:    01:30:44    So it's not just gonna be following your white 30 something year old guy in Chiang Mai or Canggu <laugh>.  

Agnes:    01:30:52    Oh, no, no, no.  

Kristin:    01:30:54   They're actual digital nomads.  

Agnes:    01:30:55    Yeah. The name of the the film company is called, uh, Royal Films. So in case someone's looking, they actually have a little bit of detail on, on their website about the nomads.  

Kristin:    01:31:09    Okay. We'll link to that. Yeah, we'll link to that in the show notes. And, um, and well, let's do a quick lightning round before I let you go. Lightning <laugh>. That's the sound of lightning <laugh>. 

Agnes:    01:31:25    I'm like what's the best country you wanna go see now. <laugh>  

Kristin:    01:31:29    <laugh>. Oh, we have to ask that. Um, all right. Solo or group travel?

Agnes:    01:31:36    Solo every time.  

Kristin:    01:31:41    Favorite destination for relaxation and leisure?  

Agnes:    01:31:45    Uh, for, oh, that I've been to, uh, before. I think I would say Spain.  

Kristin:    01:31:53    Any cities in particular?  

Agnes:    01:31:56    You could do Malaga. I guess I had fun there. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:32:01    Malagas really cheap too.  

Agnes:    01:32:03    Yeah, it's cheap. I thought it was, yeah, I found it cheap relaxing. And the fact that I could work at night without worrying about anything. And it was super safe for solo travel. I approved.  

Kristin:    01:32:16    Yeah, Spain is a great country for digital nomads and I find that it's even cheaper than Portugal in many parts.  

Agnes:    01:32:23    I've, I've never been to Portugal. It's still one of my <laugh> places to go with my visa limitations every time. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:32:33    And what is your favorite digital nomad destination to go to get things done for work?  

Agnes:    01:32:40    Uh, I, uh, I'll just go based on the, my experience is, uh, when I was broke I went to Bolivia. I really liked it there. But, um, unless you're staying at Selina in La Paz <laugh>, by the way, I stayed there for a month just because of the good wifi <laugh>. So I, um, I would say, um, I would say Bolivia, but um, I would say I still don't have enough experience for, uh, traveling full-time as I work. So, um, I don't have a good reference.  

Kristin:    01:33:19    Okay. Well I would say, um, from what I've read about Bolivia, it has a lot of cool coffee shops. And it's super affordable for South America. So that seems that's a place that's been on my bucket list for a while. And can you share how much you paid at Selina, which we'll link to, because Selina is like a digital nomad hotel. Yeah. And they have locations all around the world. So we'll link to that in the show notes. But how much approximately for one month?  

Agnes:    01:33:44    Um, I was paying, but I was paying in a four, uh, for bed, uh, place and sharing. Yeah. And I was doing, uh, $20 a day. How much is that in a month? About 600. It was actually super affordable. <laugh>. Okay. Uh, no, 12.  

Kristin:    01:34:06    I feel like that might be a lot--  

Agnes:    01:34:07    About 1200, but if they stayed, uh, if someone stayed the 10 bed or the eight, like the higher the numbers, it's um, you'd pay, uh, about 900 or a little bit less. But you have to notice that Selina is more expensive than most hostels. So, uh, some of the hostels nearby, they just pay $6 a night.  

Kristin:    01:34:35    Right. That's what I would say. Like for Selina, you're gonna pay more. So you're paying like 600 a month for a shared room, but you're getting all the amenities of Selina, which always includes good internet, like good onsite amenities, usually some type of cooking or restaurants. Yeah. Uh, coffee shop, some kind of services there. And then you also have access to the community of other remote workers and typically foreigners and people that are living there. So I would say for somewhere like Bolivia, you could probably put your whole cost of living at $600 a month if you were really frugal and you were there for a long time and you were like getting a long-term rental and things like that. But, um, you know, there's a trade-off. So that's good for people to, uh, to know sometimes you wanna pay more just to have easier. Yeah,  

Agnes:    01:35:25    Like with me, I had, um, actually Bolivia was the first time I was staying in a hostel. I always used to staying in Airbnbs, but this time I was broke <laugh>, so I did it just <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:35:37     Well that's, that was actually my next question. 'cause you've been able to travel a lot on a pretty slim budget. So is there like a money saving flight or accommodations or travel hack or strategy that you can share with us?  

Agnes:    01:35:55    Um, I would say the most amount of money that you can spend is on your drinks. If you are alcoholic <laugh>, not alcoholic, but you get what I say, like if you're gonna sit there and have like four cocktails or it, it adds up and then if you get a meal, yeah. So part of the reason why I liked Selina  is because I, I paid a little bit more for my accommodation because I required quiet time and the four, uh, four beds, no one really used to come there. So most of the times I was alone. So it was like having a private room for less, um, But, but if you are able to, you could have accommodation, you could, uh, go to the six bed, I mean the $6 hostel and then still come to Selina and use their accommodations, but make sure that you bought your drinks, you already are well fed, so just come have a coffee, enjoy their wifi <laugh>.  

Agnes:    01:36:59    And that's, uh, how you do it cheaper because I, that's another thing. When I was in Ghana, someone saw, I had posted this thing, uh, with, um, the Kempinski Hotels. Is it, is that how we call it?

Kristin: Uhhuh kem--

Agnes:   the five star? Yeah. So someone was like, wow, you really live a good life. I'm like, No. Part of the digital nomad hack is you always live in a cheaper place and then you find a place with great wifi and usually it's in, especially in third world countries, it's in these five, four star hotels. So live in that place. Don't finish your money on hotel accommodation, come to that place, ask for a coffee or a meal, and then use it to stay there and use the good wifi. It'll save you a shit load of money.  

Kristin:    01:37:56    And that's why so many coworking spaces are popping up in hotels and in hotel lobbies. 'cause that's where all the good amenities are. So, but I, oh yeah. I've worked in five star hotels all around the world while I was say, staying in like a shared Airbnb or something. Yeah. So that's a good hack. Yeah. Um, what, what is your most commonly used remote work tool that you rely on for your business?  

Agnes:    01:38:23    Um, I would say, uh, remote, uh, calling. So, I have, uh, um, I was lucky enough that before I left the States, I had gotten the Google Fi, so, uh, sim card and I used Google Fi everywhere. And now that I've been in Kenya for a while, um, actually about, uh, almost four or five months is where ago is when they told me that they're no longer going to offer me the roaming, uh, internet because I've not been in the States for more than seven months. And it had gone for over a couple years. So I think it's fair enough seven months <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:39:11    Yeah. yeah, Google Fi is good. It's only like, is it $10 per gigabyte or something like that? 

Agnes:    01:39:18    Um, yeah,  It's uh, $10 per gigabyte and right now I'm paying $24 just to maintain the line and doing voice. And whenever I call like anyone in the states, it's usually free. The trick is make sure you use the app. So instead of going to like normal phone calling, use the Google  

Kristin:    01:39:40    Wifi call.   

Agnes:    01:39:41    Yeah. The use the got it Google Hangout. That's the mistake I did. I didn't know the first time when I was using it that if you call directly like a normal phone call, they actually charge you for it. So it took until when I got to Kenya, I started using Hangout on my computer all the time and I realized my bill is not so expensive. Then I came to realize, oh, when you use this app, they don't charge you for at least US numbers, so I only use it right now. So, and my bill on only comes as $24 and I've been able to maintain my line. It's super easy.  

Kristin:    01:40:22    Great. That's a great tip. I'm gonna switch over to that <laugh>. Um, okay. What are some destinations that people could visit in Kenya, being that you are a local there? Like I wouldn't even know one place to, to tell people.  

Agnes:    01:40:39    I would tell peo-- it depends on what you wanna do. There is a good hangout place if you're looking especially it's full of uh, uh, like, uh, expats also go there and it's a very safe place. You can go to hang out, have some good food. There is actually two places I'd recommend. One of it is called Near Mamamama and another one, and I can give you links. And um, the other one is called, uh, the Bebalbab. So.  

Kristin:    01:41:10    And where is this? Which city?  

Agnes:    01:41:12    Um, they're all in Nairobi.  

Kristin:    01:41:15    Oh, okay.  

Agnes:    01:41:16    Um, and the Belbab is actually cool because before Covid you, you, it's this place where you go sit outside and there is some fires on the side and they have Maasai blankets, Maasai, the local people who have been able to maintain their culture. So they have this, uh, uh, almost chic like looking, uh, covers that they usually used to cover themselves because, uh, most of the time during the old days, they just walked naked with a little thing like covering the private area. But, um, but nowadays they have clothing <laugh>, but before. Okay. But before then, that's what they used. They didn't use it to cover themselves, it was just something that they wrapped around their neck whenever they were walking. So.  

Kristin:    01:42:07    And they give those to you at the table?  

Agnes:    01:42:09    Uh, they have them there so that you can, when it starts getting cold, you can cover yourself <laugh>, So. 

Kristin:    01:42:15     Oh, cool. Okay. So those are restaurants  

Agnes:    01:42:17    Hangout place. Yeah.  

Kristin:    01:42:20    Okay. And what about, uh, like at maybe an adventure destination outside of Nairobi? Um, could be like a city or a, an attraction or a natural park or a safari, something like that.  

Agnes:    01:42:33    Yeah, The Maasai Mara has, uh, um, actually all the big five. So lion leopards, uh, uh, giraffe, uh, why am I, uh, not a cheeta? I forgot what the five big five are.  

Kristin:    01:42:50    All the animals? 

Agnes:    01:42:51   Yeah. The big five you can Google was Big five <laugh>, say in Kenya. Yeah. So all the animals that you're looking for. And the good thing about the Maasai Mara is it's very close to Nairobi. If you're driving, it's five hours to get there. Uh, but you can take a flight that takes 35 minutes and it's about around, uh, $30 or something like that. Then you can get in and uh, see. And you don't have to drive for very long before you start seeing the wild animals once you get there. So. Yeah.  

Kristin:    01:43:25    Cool. And I think Kenya, I think I actually put Kenya in one of my recent videos about countries that Americans could travel to. So I think it's open right now to international. 

Agnes:    01:43:35    It's  been open since August. August 1st. Yeah.  

Kristin:    01:43:38    And my last question is, do you have any parting words of advice or wisdom for people, especially from developing countries who might be interested in the digital nomad lifestyle, but they don't, you know, have any role models or friends or supporters that, that agree with that decision?  Um, what, any advice for people like that? Um,  

Agnes:    01:44:03    I would say first of all is, uh, you have to be confident in yourself. Like, don't listen to other people. Just have your own focus in your mind. And if people don't support your decision, stop telling them your plans. <laugh>,  

Speaker 3    01:44:19    <laugh>  

Agnes:    01:44:21    Just to do it. 

Kristin:    01:44:23   Yeah.   

Agnes:    01:44:23    Because if you know, it's about, it's like, uh, uh, psychologically what the things that you tell yourself end up becoming true because you think about them all the time. Same to these people who are telling you you can't do it, you can't do it, you can't do it. Just don't tell them your plan. Just, uh, work on your plan. Plan privately, if possible, go online and look for, uh, uh, for groups that are already doing something that you, uh, you want to do. In Africa, unfortunately, uh, the Digital Nomad, um, lifestyle is mostly practiced by experts. So I would say for, uh, someone who's beginning to just try to get, uh, to get enough income to start traveling is, uh, try to do something local, like travel locally and then get that feel and then start thinking of ideas of things that you could do locally that would enable you to travel to those destination locally.  

Agnes:    01:45:31    Because once you start small, you are able to expand. Otherwise, if you start thinking by going abroad, you are going to end up using all your money just to, uh, to travel. And then you'll miss out on the opportunity to grow yourself. Another thing is, it's hard to get local jobs that actually make a decent wage for someone to travel. So look into like, there's countries like, I think is Indonesia one of them? I think Vietnam, uh, uh, Japan look for, uh, other like ways that you can make money outside of the country that you live in and try looking. And most of that detail is actually online. I tell pe- people, YouTube is such a good resource because people put out free information. You don't have to pay anything and free is good when you're broke. 'cause I've been there many times <laugh>. So start widening your horizon by just, uh, trying to look for resources online. Don't rely on local because like you said, that if people don't support your lifestyle, they're not gonna help you come up with ideas of what to do in order to achieve what you're trying to get to.  

Kristin:    01:46:55    Yeah, that's good advice to have. You know, if you want to have this global lifestyle, you need to have a global mindset. And that starts with your research process. And point A before you start your journey is like thinking bigger, thinking outside the borders of your country, thinking outside of your friend circle and your city. And quite often when we are telling people our plans before they've come to fruition or before we've even started them, sometimes we're looking for validation of those plans and ideas so that we can give ourselves permission to pursue them. And you're not always, or usually going to get that from the people that you tell your ideas to, especially if they're unconventional. So I always tell people, if you need permission, come to me, I will give it to you. But for the most part, you're not gonna get that.  

Kristin:    01:47:43    And even last night my sister called me because she's, she signed up to do a fitness competition, so her life for the next six months is going to be training for this fitness competition. And she was giving me like all these reasons why she wanted to do it, and then she was gonna post on social media about it and da, da da da da. And I interrupted her and I was like, you don't have to convince me. Like, I think if that's your idea and that's your goal, you should do it and you wanna pursue it, you should go do it. And it's, you know, but that's a very typical, um, she's in a traditional environment, traditional job, working at a law firm, and you know, she feels like she needs to tell her friends, family and other people to get their approval, like approval so that she can pursue this thing. And I'm like, you go do it <laugh>, I'm your sister. You know, like, I'm gonna give you permission so everybody listening, like, listen to Agnes and I follow your freaking dreams. Yeah, just do it. You don't need anyone's permission and, um, you're gonna take it one step at a time. You're gonna figure it out. And, uh, there's more of us,

Agnes:  I think also

Kristin:  more of us like-minded people out there.  

Agnes:    01:48:52    I think also it's fail failing. A lot of people are so afraid of failing that they won't even try. And if you don't try, you'll never get to where you are going. So that's why I, um, I mean, it's good to share ideas, but sometimes, especially if you know it's a dream that's very personal to you, work on it silently so that it can mature enough for you to present it out there. Otherwise, if you present it when it's still shaky, it's gonna crumble because everyone's gonna be punching it left and right, <laugh>, and it's not even gotten a good foundation yet. So don't tell people about your plants. Do it first. And then they, they're like, oh, Agnes is in Dubai. When did she get there? Oh, she did it long time ago. <laugh>,  

Kristin:    01:49:44    I love it. 

Agnes:    01:49:44     And then if someone, if someone's like, how did you, um, get there? Like just one step at a time, don't tell people, just do it. And then once it's done, no one can undo it, including yourself.

Kristin:  Yes.

Agnes:  So it's done.  

Kristin:    01:50:01    That is great advice. We're gonna end off on that. Thank you so much Agnes, for joining us on your Monday evening. And

Agnes: You're welcome.

Kristin:  Goodbye. Hello to everybody out there listening across the world. Follow your dreams and we'll see you next week. 

Agnes:    01:50:18    Okay,  sounds good. Bye.  

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