Living Like a Local in France & Italy: Language, Lifestyle, Cost of Living, and More

Sneak Peek:

Tuula:    00:00:00    It's, it's a very caring, take your time with people, place, and if you put in the time, you will have a friend for life. And those will probably be the best friends we've ever had.  

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.  

Kristin Wilson, Host:    00:00:33    Hey there, Kristin, from Traveling with Kristin here and welcome to episode 220 of Badass Digital Nomads. My guest today is the lovely Tuula Rampont, who is the France correspondent for International Living. And she has been living abroad for more than a decade in both Italy and France. And she's become fluent in both languages. So today she's going to share some of her insights to the culture and the daily lifestyle in Italy and France. And if you would like to hear more from Tuula and myself, then you can meet both of us in person this September 2nd through fourth at International Living's Ultimate Go Overseas Bootcamp. And you can still get a discount on your ticket by using our Friends and family link in the show notes, and we'll both be giving multiple talks there. So we hope to see you there. And also, I have a lot more brand new interviews coming your way over the next couple of months, so get excited because we have some old guests who are coming back, such as the infamous Palle Bo, the Radio Vagabond, which many of you loved his interview about becoming a digital nomad in your fifties.  

Kristin:    00:02:00    I haven't talked with him since 2018, so I'm so excited to have him back on the show. We're also having Nora Dunn, the Professional Hobo by popular demand of YouTube channel fame, and also she's one of the original digital nomads, one of the first digital nomad bloggers ever, and many more exciting new guests. So I can't wait for that and enjoy today's conversation with Tuula Rampont. Alright, well, welcome Tuula to Badass Digital Nomads podcast. It's so great to have you here. And it looks like a beautiful evening over in France. So tell us, where are you right now?  

Tuula:    00:02:44    Um, I'm in the southeastern corner, so it's technically on the French Riviera, but we are not really on the tourist and we are near Toulon, which is about 45 minute drive from, uh, Marseille.  

Kristin:    00:02:59    Oh, okay. I've been to Marseille. It's a really a nice area. I mean, who doesn't love the French Riviera, right?  

Tuula:    00:03:05    Yeah, exactly. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:03:07    And I know that you're originally from California.  So give us a little bit of insight into your background and how did you end up, uh, married and living in the south of France after growing up in California?  

Tuula:    00:03:20    Sure, yeah. My hometown is Ventura, which is actually a really nice place to live, and, um, was the first person in my family to go to college. So I focused a lot on my career and put myself through a university, and then I went and got a master's degree. I just traveled a bit during that period, of course, you know, I didn't focusing on my career, I didn't have too much money either, and I went down to Mexico. Mexico was like my first love. Got down to Mexico as often as I could. Um, and then I got into my career and I was doing fairly well. I worked at a university and I was a director of a retention program, so I have a master's in, um, educational psychology. So it was like counseling based. So I really enjoyed that because, you know, you do really feel like you're making a difference.  

Tuula:    00:04:06    But I always had this nagging feeling that I wanted to travel and really hit the road. And I was kind of at a point in my career where it was take like the next big step, and it's even incredible, I would say this at this point, but, uh, perhaps get a PhD <laugh>, which seemed a lot. And I actually thought I was missing out on my dream that I'd always wanted to do, which was to live abroad. And so I took my first trip to Europe when I was 30 and it was really eye-opening. I mean, I adored Mexico, I still love it. And I did one internship when I graduated college in Brazil, which was another really great experience. But when I hit Europe, um, nothing really compared, and I just really fell in love with the lifestyle. I first, uh, traveled in a group tour because none of my friends could take any vacation time in the, in California, which probably says a lot about what's going on at the time.  

Tuula:    00:05:11    And, um, we started in Italy, Rome specifically, and I didn't wanna leave Rome, so I already knew I was kind of in trouble <laugh> and actually let the group go on for two days ahead of me. And I went and I joined them. They were right outside Florence in this really wonderful town, Luca. And so I joined them by train and then we went on to, uh, very interesting parts. It was kind of a really off the beaten track, um, group tour. So, uh, Italy, then we did parts of Switzerland, and then we ended up in France. And I have to say France was a huge mystery to me because, um, the Italians very kind of gregarious and like outgoing and everywhere you went, you know, you kind of muddled through, but you really felt like here they are and they're welcoming you, you know, forever how long you were there.

Tuula:    00:06:05    You know, I didn't know if there it was gonna be beginning lasting friendships there or whatnot, but it, it felt very kind of similar to me. I'm quite extroverted. So when I got to France, it was just so beautiful all the places that we traveled. And, um, we went to, um, Dijon and then we went to, I like, again kind of off the beaten track places. So we did like a lunch in Burgundy and then now I can pronounce it, I can never pronounce it at the time, <laugh>. There's, uh, where the, your champagne is made in hams, which is a ridiculous <laugh> reams is how you would pronounce it in English. Uh, and then we had up in Paris. And so while I really enjoyed France and I had definitely the best meal of my life at the time, it was this really eye-opening experience.  

Tuula:    00:06:53    I still felt, I really felt like a call to Italy and I couldn't really ever leave this fantasy I had of Rome. And so I went back and I knew eventually that I would move, that I would go. And um, it was a really frightening thing and very scary. And it was just a time in my life and I thought if I don't go now, I'll never go. And so, um, I had like a plan A and a plan B and a plan C <laugh>. And so took me three years to prepare everything. And then, so at 33 I moved to Rome. And um, again, I had some backup plans. Um, I rolled in a language school right off the bat and that was nice to get kind of integrated and meet people. Um, and I eventually found a job, I think it was about three months in.  

Tuula:    00:07:42    I had done some teaching before I went and did my master's program, um, at, in English as a second language. And so before I left for Rome, I picked up a TFL certificate. And so I got a job teaching English. And it was a, it was interesting, it was really interesting. I met a lot of fun, wonderful intelligent people, expats and, um, Italians. I taught English in companies, so it was mainly all Italian executives all over Rome. Um, glad I had a lot of energy at that time because I was at one end of the city to the next, um, almost every day.  

Kristin:    00:08:22    Oh, so you were teaching multiple people in multiple different locations?  

Tuula:    00:08:27    Yeah, sure. So I, I would go to banks, I would go to, um, IT companies. Um, one group was involved in the, the lottery, very interesting real estate funds. Um, some of, some, some people were one-on-one like ad executives. It, it is fascinating because, um, as much as you speak English, especially at a certain level, people are telling you all about their lives too. So you learned about the culture, you learned about their family life, you learned where to travel, you know, within Rome and Italy you learned about customs. And at, at some point they sh you know, they share words with you in Italian and things and expressions and every day was, was very fascinating.  

Kristin:    00:09:11    What are some of the things that stuck out to you? Like any stories or anecdotes that you can share with us that, that you remember?  

Tuula:    00:09:20    Well, I, I, um, I didn't plan as well as probably I, I I should have <laugh>. And the one thing that really stuck out to me was, um, how helpful people were people were very helpful. And I remember, um, it took me about three months to find an apartment and I had gone with the intention of, um, finding roommates not knowing that that's not exactly what's done, um, in a lot of cities in Italy because people will stay at home with their families and go to school and whatnot. So the roommates are gonna find are probably expats and there's not even in Rome as many expats as you would think that, um, have those type of situations. So I ended up, um, renting an apartment on my own, like taking on a lease and everything. And I remember I was in a, a cafe and I went all over Rome and by that point I was teaching, so I was getting to know the neighborhoods and I was in a cafe and, and Trastevere.  

Tuula:    00:10:21    And, um, I made, you know, it's kind of a semi friendship with one of the, um, you know, the barista's there. And all of a sudden she said, you know, like, I can't remember his name. I'm gonna say Marco <laugh>, he's, he's, um, renting an apartment, you know, I, I know him. Would you like? And all of a sudden here's Marco. And he's like, let's go <laugh> <laugh>. And, and, and we, we climbed up and it was in the next neighborhood over, so like the neighborhood of Monte Verde that overlooks the Trastevere, which is this beautiful area. It's gorgeous, you can see all of Rome from up there. And, um, and we just walked and talked and he took me up to the apartment and we looked around. It wasn't exactly a, a good fit 'cause of just the size. 'cause I was thinking I'll probably have to get roommates on my own and whatnot.  

Tuula:    00:11:08    But it was just the kindness of people and the willingness to go the extra mile. And, um, of course I have a lot of stories just of, you know, different things in class and whatnot. A lot of cultural differences, a lot of things that were, were really interesting and charming and things that, the thing I I, I really loved about Italy and the thing I like about France, and you maybe you found this in your travels, is, um, a lot of these European places are how things were kind of in the US. Like there's a quite simplicity to interactions and the way that people are, and an innocence and, and people are doing things maybe, um, in a different way that we're not like accustomed to. But for example, you can feel quite safe walking around Rome, you know, at midnight. And I really like this kind of getting back to basics and, and values and whatnot when I found, like in Italy and in France as well.  

Kristin:    00:12:03    Yeah, definitely. I, I just was walking in the park a few days ago here in the UK and a man was walking his dogs and one of the dogs ran up to me, so I was petting it, and then he came over and we start talking, and before you know it, he's telling me about his dog that just passed away six weeks ago, and he's showing me pictures on his phone. Yeah.  And I was having this out of body experience thinking, I, you know, I just, this just doesn't happen in my country and I am just here on a Tuesday morning and this man is just leisurely stopping to talk with me, and he see you later and just as if we knew each other and that we were neighbors. And that is the kind of, I guess it's just a sort of, I don't even know the, the word for it. It's, it's, it's something that is lacking in the places that I've lived in - in Florida and in bigger cities in the US . But even in North Carolina, it just seems like there's not this neighborly familiarity Or willingness to talk to strangers in the US and that seems to be the norm across much of Europe, and especially in Italy. 

Tuula:    00:13:16    Yeah.  Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, I agree. I agree. There's, um, you know, unfortunately I kind of feel like people, not everyone, but it got into like kind of a fear thing where like, you know, you're maybe afraid of talking to someone or there, there's something behind it or whatnot. And what I've really appreciated in Atlanta, France is things are just natural. There's not like a second thought about what's gonna happen or, you know, it's just a kind of a really friendly neighborly. I mean, where, um, we live in France, it's actually just like kind of a small <laugh>, small utopia. I, uh, because, and I couldn't wish for anything better. We live in, um, what we'd call like a housing track back in the, in the States. Um, but the way that it's like configured, we're kind of in the, there's like a forest in front, there's a row, I think we've got like 20 olive trees when you're, you're driving in, uh, it's very, very picturesque.  

Tuula:    00:14:09    Uh, it's not a village, but it's, it's, you know, and it's not far, it's not too far from a larger city, but you could leave your doors open and the kids are riding their bikes. Um, we go and have, um, small, like a pair of teeth hours in the forest in, in front of the house, people looking out for each other. We're on a WhatsApp up group, uh, group. And if there's a car that comes in, because you know, there's, there's no, there's just no, there's only one way to come in. You might get a message and say, well, there's car parked here and it's nice teen teenagers who, you know, bought some fast food and want to eat in the floor. It's nothing, you know, but it's this real sweetness to it. And then the last, um, three years, the neighbors have gotten together and, um, gathered the olives.  

Tuula:    00:14:58    So they've, we've harvested the olives and, um, and it's like, it's a big day and you get these huge barrels and, and I can't remember how many kilos you have to get to get like a liter. And so depending on how many we harvest, each family gets at least a liter of olive oil. They take it down to the mill. And then in between of doing this olive harvest, we go into the forest and there's, again, this, everybody brings a dish. If it's like a quiche or a tart, like a savory tart could just be chips and pizza, you know, I mean, people think maybe French are very fancy, but they're, you know, not, not all the time. And, um, and the kids are there. And then the, you've got everybody from re retired to working folks to, you know, kind of everything in between and, and they, people got their dogs and whatnot.  

Tuula:    00:15:43    And it's just super sweet thing. Like, I just kind of pinched myself, like, is this really happening? And then, you know, you finish the rest of the day and then, you know, they, you drive it on over to the, uh, the mill, get it pressed, and you come back and, you know, then we'll give it as like maybe gifts to family members. And so it's just a very nice thing. And I, I think that is, that community spirit is still like really alive and well. And, and we're not in a very small, you know, town, but we're in a kind of a, you know, in a more of a countryside, but next to the city. And you can imagine how it is in a village, like a real village. You know how much people are like looking out for each other and taking care of each other.  

Kristin:    00:16:24    Yeah. Well, that sounds amazing. I will volunteer to receive some olive oil from you. 

Tuula:    00:16:29    Yeah, there  you go. <laugh>,  

Kristin:    00:16:30    When is the harvest? Because I have tried to eat olives from the trees in Greece and other places, and they're never ripe. So when is the time that you're actually,

Tuula:    00:16:39    it's October. And then I think you have to, from what I, what I understand is, uh, you've gotta treat them after. I'm not an expert. I'm, I'm like, I just know what one woman came from olives from the previous year and a jar, and I, you have to put them in brine. I'm not sure what the full thing is.  

Kristin:    00:16:56    Oh Okay

Tuula:    00:16:57    Yeah. So yeah, you, you get 'em, and then there's a, we, we just do the pressing, but she, she had 'em, so I was like, oh. And she's like, these are the ones from last year. And she'll, she, you know, I mean, it's incredible French and Italians with their food, she's like, you'll notice the difference in the taste because of X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah. It's like, it's a big, food is a big thing. Food is a big thing. And so, and, and, and people will, um, you know, I mean, we're really eating with the seasons. That's another really cool thing about living, you know, in France and Italy the same. So now people are gonna start, um, if they haven't already, but canning, you know, and making jams and things like that 

Kristin:    00:17:35  with  the berries.  

Tuula:    00:17:36    Yeah. We have a fig tree. So, and this, the figs are ripe and, you know, you can, you people, people go and make jam of every, any, it's just people are into that thing and it's, it's not, and people have time. People have time to do it, you know, I just say I don't, I could do it. I mean, I'm just a bit lazy. But <laugh>, I mean, I, I I work full, you know, full time and I feel like I never worked a day in my life since I left the US you know? I mean, there's just not the same level of stress. It's just, it's, you know, I mean, compared to how I lived and the, you know, I California can't say enough about California. I love California. It's, it's a wonderful place, but there's a, the commute and all, we're all dealing with that, like all over the US but it was a lot. I mean, it was a lot to be able to live there comfortably and kind of have time for yourself. So now we very, very comfortably and I have a lot of time for myself.  

Kristin:    00:18:34    Yeah. That is, that is the dream. Yeah. And I wanna get more into the, like a day in your life in France where we'll talk about also what you do for work. Okay. Um, but just to, uh, you know, bring it back full circle to Italy. Um, so you're in Italy for how long?  

Tuula:    00:18:53    So I was there for three years. There were some, um, really good points about Italy and then things that were, um, challenging, which I don't think you would know unless you live somewhere. And so, you know, working with International Living, I kind of like to say it's really nice to go and have boots on the ground and do like a long-term rental to see if it's gonna work out for you. Um, and, um, I did meet a French guy, but I wouldn't necessarily be stayed in Italy long term. Um, and it was looking like I would go perhaps back to the US but I wasn't sure if that was gonna happen either. And I couldn't really see kind of giving up the European lifestyle. So we were dating for about a year and, um, he was on a work assignment and he was called back to France. And so we were both saying, well, it'd be really easy to go to the United States. You know, I would've picked up on my career, I'd only been gone really three years. So I kind of, you know, I still had my network. And, um, and I thought, you know, um, I was hesitant to go to France because of the language barrier, to be completely honest. Which, and did  

Kristin:    00:20:11    You learn Italian when you were in Italy? Did, like, did you become fluent?

Tuula:    00:20:15    I did.  Okay. Uh, yeah, pretty, pretty close, so  

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Tuula:    00:21:44    I, you know, I I, you can never maybe prepare a hundred percent for a move and I, some of the financial details that could have been stronger on for Italy, but like language wise and culture wise, like, I did a deep dive. So, I mean, I really studied Italian before I left, and I went to classes at the community college, and then I was maybe, was it two or three months of Italian lessons in Rome. And so I was at a actually really good level, and the thought of starting over and  language --I know  

Kristin:    00:22:18    I know, It's like going back to preschool.  

Tuula:    00:22:21    Oh, goodness. and, and just French seems so daunting. I mean, it just really seemed overwhelming. And, um, but to be honest, and there's a deep, deep part of me, as easy as it would've been to go back to the United States, I mean, I pretty much could, if I still had my friend circle, you know, and the, the community I'd built over there, I didn't really see that happening either. I had just kind of left that lifestyle behind. And, um, I thought, well, let's give France a try and will see how it goes. And I had a lot of stereotypes and judgements, but, um, Nicholas is my husband. He was very different than what I didn't know any French people, and what I thought they were is not who they are. Uh, and it's kind of embarrassing to say at the time that how I even approached getting to know him was very hands off.  

Tuula:    00:23:18    And when is this arrogant, you know, type of snobby, rude person gonna come out, you know? And he wasn't like that at all. I mean, he's talking to me about, uh, his trip to Texas. He had a, uh, a cousin who was working there and how fascinating all these, you know, these, these big cars. And he just, you know, one this big cheeseburger, and he was just this very kind of low key guy. And, you know, and then he started talking about France and which a lot of things were similar to Italy, kind of with the social system and how they approach, you know, work-life balance and things like that. But then it seemed kind of more things started coming in, you know, a little bit about healthcare and just the things that he was able to do with his full-time job, to me were just mind-boggling. I mean, they've got the five weeks vacation time, um, they have something called, and I'll have to say it in French <laugh>, it's called a Committee to Enterprise. And what that is, is kind of the HR department who takes care of you and plans, like discounted vacations for you,  

Kristin:    00:24:29    Uh, from your company.  

Tuula:    00:24:31    Yeah. From your company.  

Kristin:    00:24:32    So the, the HR department is planning vacations for the employees.

Tuula: Yes, yes.

Kristin: And giving them travel deals. 

Tuula:    00:24:40    Yeah,  Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Kristin:    00:24:41    How  did I not know this?  

Tuula:    00:24:42    <laugh>, I <laugh>. See, France is like, that's why, why it's such a shame if people get, you know, like I did stopped on the language barrier, the culture differences. So once you get here, you're like, what was this secret all about? Like, I was it just because we were, you know, we were in Rome and we were dating, and who knows, this is where this is gonna go. And I remember we were out to lunch and he said, um, well, you know, I'm going, you know, back to France this weekend because we're going, uh, on a, on a ski weekend in the Alps with my company. And I'm like, oh, like you, that's a thing, <laugh>. And, and I'm like, and, but it was, it's also low key. It's not, um, they took a bus, you know, I ended up going on one of these ski weekends when I moved here, <laugh> with them, and, you know,  

Kristin:    00:25:29    Sounds fun. And,  

Tuula:    00:25:30    And yeah, it's like three days. They leave like on a, a Friday, come back Sunday night. Um, I, I mean, it's ridiculously cheap. And they all get on a bus. They're singing songs, they go on the slopes. They're kind of in a, it's a hotel, but it's really kind of dormitory style, nothing really fancy. You go down and you have dinner, and then, you know, you kind of, again, you see some songs, you play board games, and then you go  

Kristin:    00:25:53   Wholesome some good, fun.

Tuula:    00:25:55    Wholesome, good fun. Absolutely. And like, you know, down to earth. I think that's what French people get a, a bad rep, you know?  

Kristin:    00:26:01    Right. Well, that was one of the questions I wanted to ask you is what is your response and your perception now to that stereotype that, you know, French people are rude, or they're snobby, or they don't like Americans or they don't like tourists. Is that something that just comes from certain touristy areas of Paris? Or what is your perception now?  

Tuula:    00:26:24    I think there's a couple things. It's, um, first of all, I'll say right off the bat, the French are wonderful. Um, you not, might not necessarily get that like in a, you know, a a a trip to Paris for even like a week because maybe you're not gonna interact, you know, Paris is, I, you know, I go to Paris at least, you know, once a year for like a work training, and sometimes I go twice. And, and at first Paris was kind of overwhelming, kind of daunting for me, but it's really kind of a collection of villages. If you stay in one neighborhood, you get to, but maybe the first time I went, goodness, I talked to my waiter at the restaurant and I didn't really talk to anybody else. And he was lovely, and he was really nice. And the thing with the French is they're reserved, so they're not, you know, as open as gregarious as the Italians.  

Tuula:    00:27:12    Um, and so it takes longer to get to know them, but they're very genuine. So they, our and I made those kind of faux pas mistakes when I first arrived where I'm very kind of, you know, American like, Hi, how are you? Like, you know, we're at a party, let's you know, next thing you know, we're gonna be best friends, kind of, you know, we're not, we're not best friends, but, you know, you go to a party in California and you know, your friend's friend, all of a sudden you find something in common, and then night you exchange numbers, and it's this really open type kind of thing. The friends are more like, get to know you, it's gonna be slower. And then all of a sudden they open up and they are the most, um, kind, generous and consistent people and very down to earth. 

Tuula:    00:28:03    But the one thing I don't think people would understand, um, about the French is they actually have a very polite society. So there's a kind of a social dance of getting to know you and, you know, our, my, you know, our together, but, you know, our first friends and we're still friends from 13 years were our neighbors, and I would never have got that. And, uh, our other second pair of good friends were our neighbors when we moved. And, um, because you're seeing them on a regular basis, um, like if, if you were at, if you were at work, you would pick up French friends. You need to have some kind of constant contact with them. Also. People wouldn't understand this at all. They're very self-effacing and actually, um, make fun of themselves a lot. Oh, I wouldn't think that. But they're also, yeah, they're also afraid, um, they're a bit like shy and also afraid of making a wrong move themselves.  

Tuula:    00:29:01    Hmm. And so they take a lot of time, they're gonna tread lightly. They actually really admire Americans and think the world of us. And the thing people maybe wouldn't get either is they're a bit intimidated, and so their English not, might not be up to par. And I think people think, okay, you know, the French always want you to speak French, and if you're not gonna speak French, they're gonna, you know, not serve you. Or, and it's actually that it's changing with the younger generation. I work at a language school, so I see the differences, but they might not put their first foot forward because they're afraid of being embarrassed.

Kristin:    00:29:39    Uhhuh  <affirmative> as I would  

Tuula:    00:29:40    Be afraid people, yes.  

Kristin:    00:29:41    I don't think people would, I'm afraid to, that would speak French, because my French is very bad. My pronunciation is very bad. And I can remember being in the bakeries all around France and just trying to order a coffee, and they're just looking at me like, we'll, speak English, then it's okay. And, and have you learn French now?  

Tuula:    00:29:59    Yeah, yeah. I learned French, so, and it's fine, actually. I love it. I honestly love the language. I mean, it, it, it, in the beginning it's, you know, it's a sharp learning curve, but again, I'm in a place where there are not a lot of English speakers, so it came fairly quickly. And again, if you are in, I mean, I say this, but it's not always true. If you're in a bigger city like Paris, people might not take the time as much, but you could have a pleasant experience. I've had tons of pleasant experience. I was just in Lyon a couple, and people were, um, uh, just amazing. Yeah. So it's not always true, but when you're outside of a big city and, and especially in like a smaller town or village, you are like the cool American, you are like the exotic person, they're gonna ask you, you'll never believe that Our, um, small village has an American classic car, uh, day where it's like a festival. And so there's there, there are a handful of people in, in the area who have these American classic cars, and they drive them to the center of the village. And I'm always, I just kind of come around and I just look, you know, I don't wanna step on anybody's toes, but people have cowboy hats and boots, and they'll, it's a whole thing on the other side of this country line dancing.  

Kristin:    00:31:10    Oh, Wow. So  

Tuula:    00:31:11    People will be really surprised. And again, it's a shame because I think that language barrier and culture barrier kind of keeps people from doing more of like a deep dive with France. And, um, I, I know that it's this gentleman who, um, has written a book on the French, well, on his experience, I should say, um, moving to France. And he said that, um, the, the French, they're like coconuts that it got kind of a ex, you know, a bit of a rough exterior, and then you crack it and they're all sweet on the inside.  

Kristin:    00:31:45    Aw. That's cute. 

Tuula:    00:31:45    Yeah,  and that's, yeah, I think it's really sweet. I think it's really sweet. Yeah. So, and then the last thing I'll say, because the, the whole topic of the French could probably take up another hour is that, um, they, like, as I mentioned, they have a lot of, um, like social mores like norms. Like for example, if you go into a bakery or cafe or restaurant, there's a definite, you, you, you, they would like you to say like, Bonjour, or, you know, even if you're just browsing. And so once you know, like the little bit of the dance and the basic words, I mean, I have a, a really good story just from a couple of weeks ago where, um, I have like a small ankle sprain that came back and I had to go on crutches and I had be dropped off at work.  

Tuula:    00:32:27    And so I'm going to this local cafe I've never been to, and it definitely seemed like a local's only place. And for the first week, I just kind of hobbled over on my crutches and I ordered my coffee. And honestly, I didn't, I was just like, Bonjour. And she's like, and I thought, okay. And she wasn't overly friendly. I mean, it's like, okay, you know, that's fine. And there's another server, you know, I, we say server, I dunno if that's correct word. Um, it's French. And so then another, you know, he's not really looking at me either at either. And then a week goes by and then I come back the following Monday and I sit down again and she comes over and she goes, and how are you doing today? And I was like, oh, big smile. And she uses the informal language too, which is like a big, you know, French is very kind of formal with a language.  

Kristin:    00:33:15    Oh, so she says this to you in French?  

Tuula:    00:33:17    Yeah. Yeah. And then she, and so then, uh, and then she brings me a chair and she's like, do you wanna put your crutches on this chair here? And I'm like, I was just like, you know, and here I've been here 13 years, but I think this is just like such a good example, you know, where I'm like hobbling along for like a week and not getting much, and then all of a sudden this whole floodgate opens, you know? 

Kristin:    00:33:38  Yeah.  She recognizes you.  

Tuula:    00:33:39    Yes. Yeah. And then she's like, do you want, you know, and so she's like asking me to do, and now I know my order. So she's like, do you want the, and it's, what is it? Uh, Macchio, I can't remember. No, it's not macchiato. Um, and why that? Why is that? And then, uh, and I said, yeah, I do. And so springs where might not, not na little, it's like a little cafe lake. And um, and then I'm like, okay. And then the other guy that he's like, hello from far. And I'm like, hello. And then now we're, we're like, we're on the way to some kind of French bowl almost. And so, and then the next day, I don't even have to order, she comes out from the cafe. 'cause we're all on a terrace. We're on a terrace on the sidewalk. And she comes out with my order and she's like, hi, how's everything?  

Tuula:    00:34:17    Yeah. So that's just an example where you, you know, in Italy people are like, oh gosh, the Italians and this and that, because the moment you sit down, they're like this and that. And this is my son and this is my daughter and da da and this, you know, I mean, to be, you know, it's a bit stereotypical, but, you know, maybe going a bit too far. But, and I think that's what people don't, don't get is that it just takes a bit more time to, to get to know them. They're wonderful best friends I ever had. Very genuine. They, they'll help you do anything. They'll help you move, they'll help you change the oil in your car. We have so many, they'll come and save the day for you. So if you put in the time, you will have a friend for life. And those will probably be the best friends we've ever had, so  

Kristin:    00:34:57    Being around people--

Tuula:    00:34:59    Yeah, 

Kristin:    00:34:59    Being around people like that makes me want to do more to help people because I feel like it's a true friend who will help you move. Yes. Pick you up from the airport. Definitely. Uhhuh help you fix your car. Those are things that I feel like in the US people don't wanna help with. 'cause they're annoying things, but yeah. They are things that, uh, that, you know, it's genuinely something that you would need help with. And, makes me wanna be more generous, you know? Absolutely. Kind of passing it around, who needs help moving, I will help you. Oh, wait, I do that for work <laugh>. I help people move for work, but I mean, yeah, you do.  

Tuula:    00:35:35    You do. That's a, yeah, that's true.  

Kristin:    00:35:36    Physically packing boxes is what I'm talking about. I don't like doing that for myself. But yeah, I will.  

Tuula:    00:35:43    Yeah. And yeah, and the last thing I'll say real bonus about the, you know, getting to know French and having, you know, French friends is they lavish attention on you. Um, when they invite you to lunch or dinner, I mean, they really go all out..  

Kristin:    00:35:57  Great hosts  

Tuula:    00:35:57    Yeah. Great hosts. So, and it's very different from us, you know, just the kind of, again, like a very kind of formal society in the sense of like what they do around their rituals with food. So when you go, you're gonna have in a pair of tea flour, and then you're gonna have a starter. You're gonna entree and then you're gonna have a plate the main dish. And then you're gonna have, um, this right order. You're gonna have the cheese course, and then you're gonna have a salad, and then you're gonna have a dessert, and then there'll be coffee, or perhaps after dinner drinks, depending what time of the day it is. <laugh>,  

Kristin:    00:36:40    Oh my God, I love France. I need to live there. <laugh>.  

Tuula:    00:36:43    Yeah. And, and that's what I'm just saying. It's, it's a very caring, take your time with people place. And I, the first lunch I went to, I remember was on a Sunday, and I didn't know what to do with myself because I remember being like, okay, we're going for lunch and you know, at noon, and that's great. And I have all these things to do. I'm gonna, I got that laundry I've gotta do. And, you know,  

Kristin:    00:37:05    The typical Americans we're like, I have this Sunday to do list. I gotta run errands, I gotta do the--yeah.

Tuula:    00:37:10   And we, we got there and I think we were there from like 12 to six or seven. And the whole time I was thinking like, is this what's happening here? <laugh>? Like, what are people, you know, what are people doing? And like, in my mind, I was just like ticking things through and like ticking off boxes and like, my to-do list. And then, and I was like bit anxious. And I, I just remember thinking like, what is wrong with you? You need to like,  

Kristin:    00:37:34    Be here, be here now.

Tuula:    00:37:36   Be here and settle into it. But it was one of those really long meals. And then after a while you're like, what am I, this is silly. This is wonderful. Yeah. This is absolutely wonderful. It takes a while to kind of shed those.

Kristin:    00:37:49    I, I had an experience like that in Italy with my friend. We were in, it was my birthday, and we went to dinner in this castle on the Amalfi coast. It's called Torre Normanna. Oh, restaurant. Oh, wonderful. Ev- everyone should go. It's beautiful. It's one of the oldest watch, I think it is the oldest Watchtower on the Amalfi Coast. Wonderful. Yeah. So we're there, and it was one of those very, very long dinners with all of the different courses. we were just ordering off the normal menu, but um, yeah, we just kept going and going and going. And then the owners gave us all of these free desserts.  

Tuula:    00:38:26    Oh, there you go.  

Kristin:    00:38:27    Incredible. And then we became friends with the owners. 'cause we're very drunk on wine at that point. Yeah. I don't know how many hours, probably four hours later that they're bringing us course after course of homemade desserts, there go. And then the guy, uh, puts us in touch with a taxi driver to take us back to Positano. We become friends. This is Felipe, the taxi driver. We become friends with him. So he's friends with the owner of the restaurant. Then we become friends with him, he ends up driving us around for the next week. Uh, we're still friends on Instagram. Wonderful. But the next day, or a few days later, Uhhuh, he took us to his friend's house, an older couple that used to own a, um, a bed and breakfast, and they have their own farm, their own vineyard. And we went there for lunch and we were there for six or seven hours. Yeah, totally. And same. Yeah, we have the, you and I have these memories of those meals. That's probably what they do every weekend. <laugh>. And I'm like, the, the one time I had, yeah, I had lunch for six hours. <laugh>  

Tuula:    00:39:29    That, that is absolutely right.  

Kristin:    00:39:31  And we make the gnocchi and then we go, we have the south, the cheeses  

Tuula:    00:39:36    That is Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:39:36    We go see the pigs, the pear trees, the, oh, it's, it's, it's amazing. Yeah.  

Tuula:    00:39:42    It's, yeah.  

Kristin:    00:39:42    It's incredible. This is why we wanna live in Europe. So, so how many, it's exactly right. Yeah. How many years have you been living in Europe now since you first went to Italy? 

Tuula:    00:39:51    Uh,  I think it's, I was thinking, I think it's six 16.  

Kristin:    00:39:54    Yeah. And so you never went back to live full-time in the US. 

Tuula:    00:39:58    No,  No. I thought, you know, I always considered it, and there was, I mean, nothing, you know, you miss family and friends, but there was never as big of a draw, you know? And even when I was struggling in France in the beginning when I didn't speak French and, and, um, you know, I didn't have a job. And, you know, that's a big deal. You know, when you, you kind of used to working and, and you know, you're kind of in a foreign place on your own. Even then I was like, this is gonna get really good. Like, I could just see this, all these extra kind of, I would say bonuses, like healthcare started like popping up. You know, I started to know about healthcare, you know, system. And, and I was like, I think long term, this place is gonna be amazing, you know, if I could just work through this, this tough, like, transitional period.  

Tuula:    00:40:52    But I have to say in those points, you just think, oh goodness, I could just go, you know, hop on a plane and be back. But I was like, well, what am I going back? I, one thing I was really going back for, which I loved, I absolutely loved my career, but I really felt kind of the only thing I was going back for was my career. You know, because one thing, you, you have a really wonderful work life balance here, and a lot of times I was the same way. I was really defined by my career. And it took me a, a while to transition out of that, that, you know, I wasn't my self-worth and my being wasn't all wrapped up in a title, you know, that I kind of held onto. And so beyond that, I never really considered going back. I mean, there's so many besides the, you know, the wonderful lifestyle and these, you know, friends that I made and the beautiful country and the travels. It's not people. I, I think we've quite, quite amazed it's not that expensive to live in France and it's definitely a lot cheaper than Southern California. A lot cheaper.  

Kristin:    00:42:02    Definitely. Yeah. I, I was just saying that yesterday and my weekly coaching call with my relocation clients, I was talking about, somebody asked a question about, oh, you can give some recommendations. They were going to Léon, Toulouse, Bordeaux,  somewhere else. I can't remember. And so I was giving some recommendations and just saying how you can just drive around, you know, rent a car drive around that area. The hotels are so reasonable compared to Paris. Absolutely. Paris has most expensive hotels in the world, but Léon, Toulouse, Bordeaux,

Tuula:    00:42:40   Very  

Kristin:    00:42:40    Reasonable. My Airbnb was maybe 35 Euro and I, there you go. And then you can just drive up to a Chateau and have lunch and it's 12 ,15 euro with your rose. It's so reasonable.  And even staying there is very reasonable. Yeah. But if you book it from the US and you go through like, some of those sites, the tour groups, it can be super expensive. That's, but if you just go there, you know?  

Tuula:    00:43:07    I Agree. Yeah, I agree. And you'll find more things too, which is nice. Like, um, in English on a lot of the, you know, when you're here, like on, on website. You just go to the, the town website. Like Léon has a wonderful website. Okay. You know? Yeah. And you can go and get tours in English. And so they've really advanced in a lot of different ways. I mean, I think Toulouse was the best tourism experience I've had in, in France. I was really amazed. I'm sure. I, I, I know Paris is wonderful, just Toulouse. I mean, uh, Léon was a more manageable size for me. But it was very impressive what they've done with like, for their, their just their tourism website and setting up tours and helping people.  

Kristin:    00:43:45    Great. And, and what would you say, so you guys own your house and we'll actually link to a video that you have on International Living's YouTube of your house tour 'cause it's so nice. And the garden and everything.

Tuula:  Thanks. Thank you.

Kristin: But can you give us some insight into, you know, how much, how, how much you paid for the house, how big it is.

Tuula: Sure.

Kristin: And, and what is your average cost of living over in the south of France?

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Tuula:    00:44:56    So, um, I'll say one caveat. We were definitely in a more expensive area of France. Um, uh, I was recently, well, it was the start of July. I was in the Dordogne, which if I probably, well probably if I hadn't settled here first, 'cause we now we're, we're quite tied to our area. I would really consider the Dordogne. So Dordogne is gonna be a very good option, like budget wise, which I can talk about later. So I just wanted to kind of preface because the numbers I'll give are, are more expensive for France and if, but there's an upside to that <laugh>. Um, so we first rented, um, an apartment and you in our area can still get like a two bedroom for 800, uh, Euro a month. So I think that to me, compared to what rents are in the United States in the Dordogne, it'd probably be like five or 600.  

Tuula:    00:45:52    Um, uh, because I have a American, um, friend and she's rented a furnished apartment and she has a seaview. Um, that being said, we had, we bought an apartment for about 220, uh, thousand euro. And it was a gorgeous in the best area of Toulon. And we were about a 10 minute walk to the sea in a kind of really nice, like wooded area. And I could have definitely stayed there. It was quiet. We had a lot of right retirees in our building. South of France is big for retirees.  Um, another thing too, what's nice about our area is you have, since it's big for French retirees, you have a lot of really great services. So you're not wanting for any hospitals or clinics or doctors or specialists or anything of that and activities. So every town village is really retiree focused.  

Tuula:    00:46:45    There's a lot of activities in the area. Um, so then, um, we expanded our family and, uh, we bought a house for 440,000, um, euro just, uh, outside of Toulon. So it's about like a 10 minute drive from Toulon. And, um, it's near a village. Um, and I'm gonna say it's 1500 square feet, I think 15. And we, and we have, um, three bedrooms, two bath, uh, and we, this is why <laugh>, it, it's, it's pricier for France, but definitely much more affordable than Southern California. Um, it's nothing to write home about, I think I talk about in the video, but we do have a small view of the sea. So from our front yard, you can see the sea in the distance. And I just think to myself, for what we have, and we have a, we have a garden, you know, with fruit trees and we've got olive trees and all that fun stuff.  

Tuula:    00:47:44    Um, you know what we paid here for what we could get in California. There's no comparison. Just to say also one last thing on the cost. Um, property taxes are on an average, um, a 10th of what they are in the United States. Um, so the, and housing prices on average are 34% less. So our, just to have a comparison, um, I interviewed somebody for International Living, uh, in the Dordogne a couple years back. Uh, really lovely LadyCecile and her husband and I visited their home in July. And it's about the same square footage, same bedrooms. They have a huge plot of land and they paid, um, 218,000, uh, euro for theirs. So just to kind of give you some price comparisons, there are a lot of, I had written ne off a while ago 'cause I just thought it was really expensive. And if you, for example, if you, but I've changed my mind completely. <laugh> and I, I think Nice is, is one of the top places to go. Um,  

Kristin:    00:48:48    I love Nice.  

Tuula:    00:48:49    It's, it's not gonna be your cheapest place, but compared to Paris, I think it's third of the cost of Paris. And you can get just a little bit of research for the magazine. You can, you can get rentals, you can get two, two bedrooms starting about 1200 Euro a month again, which isn't, you know, rock bottom. But I think compared to what we pay in, you know, larger cities in the United States iis quite interesting.  

Kristin:    00:49:11    Yeah. And then what about your, uh, let's say your monthly expenses as far as groceries and utilities, maybe, um, entertainment, things like that. I think really people are interested in groceries, utilities, and maybe transportation if you have a car or,  

Tuula:    00:49:32    Sure, sure. Um, the transportation we do, we have two cars. We have a used car, which I recommend, um, people if they're gonna come over is. Um, there's also another service plan, which is called Citiz, which I discovered recently where you can do a monthly pass and you can kind of just pick up a car when you like, which is interesting on a lot. Um, we pay about, I wanna say, um, for gas and whatnot, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say about 50 euro, uh, a month, um, and maintenance fees and whatnot. I'll have to check on those. I'm not sure exactly how much and, um, but it's very easy to purchase a, uh, we've had our car for thir that car for 13 years, so it's very easy to purchase like a used car if you come. Um, groceries have gone up a bit, uh, obviously for inflation, but not anywhere near the United States,  

Kristin:    00:50:29    Southern California grocery stores.  

Tuula:    00:50:31    <laugh>. Yeah. Um, I will give it, one of my, my top tips is my favorite grocery store in France is Lidl. So, I don't know if people are familiar with Lidle. Lidl is gourmet here. They have everything you need and more, and the prices are very good. Um, I'll say 600, uh, because we're a family of three. Uh, it's 600 euro on the high end for the groceries a month. 

Kristin:    00:51:01  And  that's eating gourmet.  

Tuula:    00:51:03    Yeah, that's, yeah uh, entertainment. It just depends. I'll talk about going out. Usually if we go out, um, the prices vary. You can go to like a bistro and as you mentioned, you know, it's like 12 to 16 euro and you can have just like a starter and like a main dish or you can have like a main dish and dessert. If you're gonna get a glass of wine, you can go from like 6 to 10 euro. But six is more the common, like six or seven euro for like a glass of wine. Uh, I'm so impressed with the meals out compared to what I painted. Last time I was in the United States, I had, in California I had a margarita, two tacos and some guacamole. And my friend had the same and we were out for I think $75.  

Kristin:    00:51:49    Yeah, I was gonna say it's probably--  

Tuula:    00:51:50    With Jackson tip.

Kristin:    00:51:51     Yeah. At least $30 per person there <laugh>, just for what you said.  

Tuula:    00:51:56    Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And um, here in our area and also in Léon, you can get a three course like gourmet meal for like 28 Euro.  Um, utilities. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to check on that. I actually don't remember off the top of my head. I think, um, 'cause it's, it goes monthly. I mean monthly it goes, um, by trimester and we pay a bit in advance and then you're refunded back. But I think, I'm gonna say it's about 90 for the gas. Um, healthcare is very inexpensive. And then what it's, it's most interesting for people who are coming over as retirees, um, which is a very important point to talk about when you're thinking about cost. Um, because I, I'm a salaried worker and I pay into the tax system from my paycheck basically. But if you come over, um, and you don't work in France, um, and your, your funds are coming from the United States in the form of like a pension or retirement, you are not paying into the tax system.  

Tuula:    00:53:01    So France can't, you probably already know this, but France can't touch any of your money, so that's why it's very interesting. Um, so we pay, uh, the health insurance, uh, covers at 70 or 80% of, um, doctor's visits and specialists in a hospital stays understanding that already it's very, very low. It's associate to see a doctor. It's 25 euro, so about $27. And then 70% of that was reimbursed and the prices never go up. Since I've lived here for 13 years, it's been 25 euro to see the doctor. Wow. So the p prices are fixed by the government and you can go online and see what all the costs are. And, um, we have top-up insurance like what we would think of as, you know, standard insurance you'd pay, you know, from a private, you know, we have top-up insurance to cover the rest, and our top-up insurance for family of three is about a hundred, um, Euro a month. Okay.  

Kristin:    00:54:02    So  

Tuula:    00:54:02    The fees are very, very low.  

Kristin:    00:54:05    Yeah. Just when you're talking about even healthcare and the gas, thinking back to when I lived in Costa Rica instead of $50 per month for gas, which I'm sure you have a very fuel efficient car. My expenses were around $500 per month to have an SUV in Costa Rica Oh goodness. Is about a hundred dollars a week to fill it up, plus maintenance insurance and stuff. So, yeah, that's a, that's a deal. 

Tuula:    00:54:33    Yeah. Well also another thing is we're not really driving too, because, you know, we're not driving a lot. My Que is 10 minutes, my husband's is five minutes, and we're doing everything like locally. So we're in the village, you know, and when I, I work in Toulon, which is a fairly, you know, larger sized city, um, for France, but it's about the size of my hometown in, in California, and I do everything on foot. And you can, you know, if you live in a city you can actually, which a lot of people do. Um, I know a woman who's lived in France for, I think it's maybe 30 years, and she's never had a car. And she, uh, splits her time between Paris and Nice. And she's just on the train. And then when she needs to, you know, travel, she's doing a lot of train travel, she's even going over to, you know, other European countries on the train. You know, maybe once in a while she might fly, but there's an airport in, in, um, Nice proper in the city. So that's very convenient for people. Yeah. So another thing too is we don't use our car a lot, you know? I mean, I can't even tell you how much I spend in gas in, in Los Angeles. I mean, I just, I had -- 

Kristin:    00:55:33    You need a car to go anywhere in California? Uh, I mean, they have the, the coastal train, but once you get off the train, you get a car. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. So, and what are you doing for work now? You mentioned you're a salaried employee, but you, you're also blogging and, and doing some work for International Living. Yeah.  

Tuula:    00:55:52    Um, I, yeah, I manage an English language school, so, um, I take care of kind of the, you know, everything and the daily operations and I hire the teachers and train and take care of the receptionist. And, um, and I teach myself and it's kind of a nice mix because we have students who, um, come to the school and then we also go out to companies as well. So we have a, every once in a while, which is, is a big thrill. We get to go to like a winery and teach there. So we got, we have a lot of different interesting clients. And again, same as, as in Italy, you learn so much by teaching people. You know, we have people who are just, we have every level people starting out in English, and we have people who are retired and who wanna travel, A lot of retirees who wanna, you know, learn English and, and travel.  

Tuula:    00:56:46    And you have people taking over fun and some people who need it for their businesses. So it's really exciting. And, you know, we have doctors and lawyers. You meet like a diverse group of people and then they share a lot with you. They really, I, you know, it's probably really cliche to say, but sometimes you're, you're, you're thinking like, oh, I'm learning, you know, as much <laugh> from you, especially, you know, anywhere you are. It's great to work in a language school in any country because you do learn so much and it's a nice way to have like a connection, like an anchor too. So I, I don't have any Americans working with me, but I have, um, British, uh, colleagues and so that's nice to kind of have this, you know, connection with the language and being able to communicate and, and have this little kind of cultural oasis too. So there's a lot of really nice benefits to working, I think, um, at a language school.  

Kristin:    00:57:38    Do you have any tips for people that are looking to teach English abroad on, um, where they can find jobs or any websites for getting certified for that?  

Tuula:    00:57:49    Sure. I think the, the best thing to do, um, just 'cause what I did and I found it really helpful is to make sure that you have like a, you know, teaching English certificate, like a, a TEFL or a TESL or a CELTA before you come over. 'cause then it's gonna be, um, you know, very attracted to language schools. Uh, where I work, they moved, um, 'cause it's a franchise, they move from kind of just letting anybody who was speaking English kind of test it out and see if they, and now they do require having a certification. And um, I think that's nice 'cause that'll kind of get your, you know, your foot in the door. Um, I also think a lot of times we've hired people because they've just called the school directly. So if you're looking at a particular area, let's say that you were thinking about moving to Léon or Nice or whatnot, you might just go see what the language schools are in the area. Um, send over the, the resume or the cv and then just phone and give them a call. I mean, back in, in the States when I was really dreaming of, um, coming abroad, I think, um, it's, yeah, it's still up and running. I checked, um, the Dave's ESL Cafe. Um, I don't know what they've got going on for France, but they had jobs like all around the world. So I remember I was always looking and checking that website to see what was on offer.  

Kristin:    00:59:11    Amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah, I agree. Going direct to the source, you know, cut out the middleman sometimes just  cold call people and you can end up getting clients this way. Getting jobs.  

Tuula:    00:59:22    Exactly. Yeah. Definitely. 

Kristin:    00:59:24    And, and will you and your family be coming over to the US for the bootcamp in September?  

Tuula:    00:59:30    Yeah, I will. I'll come. I'll come over. Okay. Yeah, my daughter's like, it's her first week of school, so she'll probably be in school and I'll be over, yeah. On my own. 

Kristin:    00:59:37    Great.  So we'll get to meet in person.

Tuula:  Definitely looking forward to it.

Kristin: What are, what are you gonna be speaking about there?  

Tuula:    00:59:43    Um, I'm gonna be speaking about why you should move to France. Uh, definitely think of it as a retirement, uh, destination and also all the nuts and bolts. So everything from the visa to how to sign up for healthcare to the car and the banking and all the different, you know, kind of paperwork and administrative things which are not as scary as people think. They're, and actually that France is one of the easier countries in Europe to get a visa, which is another big positive. And then I'll discuss three destinations to look at Nice is one <laugh> Spoiler alert.

Kristin:    01:00:20    Spoiler alert

Tuula:    01:00:22  Spoiler alert. And, um, three different destinations to consider out of many like, wonderful places to come and live.  

Kristin:    01:00:28    Great. Well I'm looking forward to meeting you and hearing your talk. Yeah. And if anyone listening wants to come as well, we'll link to the Kristin, uh, Traveling with Kristin, friends and family Discount in the show notes. And before I let you go, do you have any hidden gem travel destinations that we should put on our radar outside of Paris and Nice and some of the more popular areas? 

Tuula:    01:00:57    Um, I would say Alsace, I don't know if you've been to Alsace. Um, wonderful. I am dying to get back. I've been three times and I really would like to go back in the summer. Um, it's known in the wintertime as being the Christmas capital and Christmas market capital of France. And Strasbourg is amazing at Christmas time. Um, there is Alsace wine route that goes through the villages. You've got this really, uh, incredible German influence in the architecture and the food. And the top place to go in Alsace, um, in my opinion is Colmar. So Colmar is a stunning, uh, very typical Alsaceian village that the whole town is transformed into a Christmas market. So it's a fairytale. You, uh, you have to pinch yourself <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:01:52    <laugh>, okay.   

Tuula:    01:01:53    You have to reserve six months in advance, like for sure. Wow. But it's all these little chalets decorated with the hot chocolate and the, and the hot wine and pretzels, the sides of your head and homemade ornaments and Sprigs of Holly. And it's got canals that run through the middle of it. You know, you kind of expect like Hansel and Gretel are gonna pop out from around the corner. It's, it's magical. So, and I have to say it was a couple years back, um, I dunno if it was travel and leisure put, like it's one of the top, um, small destinations to travel in Europe.  

Kristin:    01:02:25    Oh wow. It sounds divine. Its really nice. I love a good Christmas market. Yeah. And great. Well thank you so much Tuula for sharing.

Tuula: You're welcome.

Kristin: Adventure. It was a pleasure in France with us today. I learned so much. Yeah. I've been to France at least three or four times and I learned so much from you Oh, good. From the perspective of daily life, so

Tuula:    01:02:45    Good happy to help. Yeah,  

Kristin:    01:02:46    Thank you so much and thanks everyone for tuning in and hanging out with us today, and we'll see you again next week.

I hope that you enjoyed learning about these insights into French and Italian culture from Tuula as much as I did. As a reminder, you can meet both of us in person at International Living's Ultimate Go Overseas Bootcamp happening over Labor Day weekend. And I will link in the show notes so that you can get that discount for being part of the Traveling with Kristin community. Thanks for hanging out with us today, and I look forward to seeing you again next week for another brand new interview.