How To Retire Before 40 (Even If You Have a High Cost-of-Living) with Stephanie and Gillian of Our Freedom Years

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin:    00:00:23    Hi everyone. Kristin from Traveling with Kristin here, and welcome to episode 73 of Badass Digital Nomads. My guests today are Stephanie and Gillian of the YouTube channel and blog, Our Freedom Years after feeling stuck in high stress corporate jobs in Toronto, Canada, Stephanie and Gillian escaped to Singapore where they lived for the next seven years. Then they quit those jobs too, and today are slow traveling the world, full-time, living on passive income as fully retired digital nomads. Just like our guest last week, Eric Richards. Stephanie and Gillian retired before age 40 using the fire system, and today they explain exactly how they did it and how you can do it too. I scheduled these interviews together on purpose so that you could get two perspectives from different couples from different countries with different situations on how they retired early. Steph and Gillian also share a lot of really practical tips on long-term travel and their cost of living as expats.  

Kristin:    00:01:33    And speaking of long-term travel, I have a brand new travel video on my YouTube channel about a new nine month long-term travel visa for Thailand. So make sure to check that out. And a quick shout out before we get into it, thanks to Guha from the US who left a five star review in the Apple Store. He says, awesome content. Cheers on your podcast. Looking forward to the next episodes. And thanks to everyone out there listening, sharing, and reviewing, enjoy today's show.

Podcast Interview:

Kristin: Thank you Gillian and Stephanie so much for joining us on Badass Digital Nomads today. And where are you recording from?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:02:15    We are here in hot and steamy Athens. I think it was above a hundred Fahrenheit today. Um, but yeah, just enjoying our time here in Greece.  

Kristin:    00:02:24    Yeah. Oh my gosh. How long are you in Athens for?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:02:27    We are just wrapping up a full month here, and we're gonna be heading a little further north. Not too sure how much cooler it will be, but we'll be getting up into the mountains a little bit, doing some hiking, so hopefully as we get into September it will be a little more comfortable for us.  

Kristin:    00:02:43    I was in Athens about two years ago. Exactly. I was there in August of 2018. And the biggest memory I have is that it was so hot <laugh> like that is my first and foremost. It was just really difficult to work because the co-working space I was at didn't have air conditioning, and so I spent a lot of time in my Airbnb working. Yeah. And then when we were outside, it was just so hot, but it was really a cool city. It was, um, a bit rough around the edges. But I really fell in love with it by the end. I was there for a few weeks and then went on to the islands. But how have you found living there so far?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:03:25    Well, fortunately we have some experience living in hot climates. Uh, so we actually lived in Singapore for six years, which is just a little cooler than it has been here, although it is above 30 Celsius every day. Not sure exactly in Fahrenheit. Um, but so here in Athens, while it has been hot, we've been making the most of getting out early in the morning, going out, you know, after as the sun is starting to set. Um, so yeah, finding our, our moments to enjoy the city and certainly it hasn't stopped us from getting out and having a great time.  

Kristin:    00:03:58    Nice. And I'm sure you're enjoying the low cost of living there as well.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:04:02    Yeah, definitely. Um, having just been in Toronto the last four months prior to this, definitely the, the lower rent is a lot friendlier on the, on the old budget, and it meant that we could get a comfortable place with a nice terrace. So we can kind of enjoy being around the Airbnb during the daytime and yeah. Not doing too bad at all.  

Kristin:    00:04:21    Before we get into your background, I was so curious to know, because I haven't traveled internationally during the pandemic, and I know, um, from stalking you online, as I tend to do with my guests, that you have a lot of videos on your channel about tips for Airbnbs and that you usually stay in Airbnbs when you travel. So I was curious, what are some of the monthly rental rates that you're seeing in Athens right now?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:04:47    Oh, it's, um, it, you know, it's really quite a range and it depends on what you are looking for and what your budget is. So we, we actually decided to spend a little bit more, so you could definitely find something cheaper than what we found. So I believe that, um, in US dollars, it's about 1200 US dollars for our apartment, but we were looking for someplace that was very spacious with a lot of amenities where we could be really comfortable because we knew we would be inside for that peak heat of day. Um, but definitely we saw places that, um, you know, cost less and maybe were a little bit smaller or, you know, didn't necessarily have the washing machine that we absolutely want it to have. Um, so it's really, I think it really is up to the individual's preferences and how much they, they're comfortable to spend.  

Kristin:    00:05:38    So do you have like a one or two bedroom?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:05:40    It is two bedroom. I mean, we don't necessarily seek out a two bedroom, but when we have it, um, it's great. We have sort of an extra room to work out in and kind of spread out into. Um, so yeah, it just worked out that that way that this perfect place, uh, happened to have that extra room for us.  

Kristin:    00:05:56    Yeah. And that's pretty nice. Nice. Because usually August is peak season in Greece, but I imagine it's not as crowded. Have you seen many tourists around?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:06:06    We, we are of the, um, brave few that have made it out into Greece this August. So it was definitely, I mean, as we were going to tourist attractions and some of the museums, uh, we have never been to Athens before, but we can only imagine when, um, some of the big cruise ships let out the, the huge hoards of tourists that would normally be here in August. So we had the rare opportunity to be enjoying the Acropolis almost all to ourselves to be enjoying some of the, the main museums all to ourselves. It's been quite lovely.  

Kristin:    00:06:40    Wow, that's amazing. And luckily, you're Canadian, so you can get in versus, uh, US citizens, so we might have a little bit of trouble with that, but I'm glad that, uh, you brought that up that you are living in Singapore, because I want to just go back a little bit in time before we get into some of your travel tips and more of the details about your financially independent lifestyles. Tell us a little bit about what your lives were like before you left Toronto. Way back when, how many years ago was that before you moved to Singapore, and what was kind of your day-to-day nine to five lifestyle like?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:07:23    Sure. So it was seven years ago when we originally left Toronto. And I would have to say that we had very average professional lives. So we each had a job that we were very serious about. We were trying to climb the corporate ladder. We, you know, we had the a a condo, we had a car. We, we just had fairly average lives that were sort of revolving around work. And whenever we could, we would take that, you know, two weeks a year and go on vacation, and hopefully we would, you know, give ourselves enough time to get to Europe or someplace a little bit more interesting. Um, and that, and that was sort of what day-to-day life looked like. So, um, in terms of, you know, deciding to make this absolutely enormous move to Singapore, it was really driven by a very strong interest in, in seeing the world and thinking that maybe working overseas was gonna be our route, that would be our ticket to get to see the rest of the world somehow.  

Kristin:    00:08:28    And so there could you guys hear that thunder?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:08:32    Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:08:33    We just had a big rainstorm hit over here in Florida. Um, so how did your friends and family react back in Toronto when you told them, you know, Hey, uh, we've just been doing our normal lives here in the rat race, especially in Toronto, it's kind of like the New York of Canada, and we decided we'd like to move to Singapore. Uh, we've never been there, but we're just gonna go there and live and work and travel the world and see you guys later. I mean, how did they react? Did they take you seriously or was it something that they were expecting and did they have any objections?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:09:11    So I think definitely everyone was pretty surprised, um, in the sense that, I mean, just about everybody, myself included, had to look Singapore up on a map to say like, where actually is this, uh, exactly, um, you know, some vague ideas over in Asia somewhere. And, um, they were, they were surprised in a way, but on the other hand, not really because we were the kind of people who, you know, would have ideas and then follow through. And once we showed that we were committed to this, we had everybody's full support. Um, because, you know, we, uh, had been the kind of people to take things on and think through them beforehand, but really, you know, make, make a go of whatever idea we had. So definitely, um, our family was on board and it's actually been something that I think has opened their horizons a little bit. Um, uh, we've had just about all of our family members came over to visit us while we were there. And, uh, I would say my, my, my dad probably wins the prize for becoming the most adventurous coming out of it because he started traveling through Southeast Asia every year. He would come visit us and then spend a few months in Thailand, uh, started visiting other places. So actually I think it's really gotten the travel bug going, uh, in a lot of our family members as well.  

Kristin:    00:10:29    That's great. You're being like the digital nomad location, independent influence amongst your friends and family.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:10:36    Definitely. Yeah. And, and Stephanie's mom came out every single year and spent a few weeks with us, so it's been, yeah, really great.  

Kristin:    00:10:43    I always say that is one of the biggest benefits of this lifestyle is just being able to spend more time than you normally would with friends and family. Especially family members that you might only see during the most stressful times of the year, like the holidays and see them for a few days or a week, and then not again for another year. So in this case, you can go back to Canada or they can come see you and just more flexible all around. And so what were your job titles in Toronto and how did you go about finding jobs in a country that you've never been to? Because we've had a lot of expats on this show. We've had a lot of digital nomads. Most of the people worked for themselves, so we haven't had that many people who found jobs once they got abroad. So yeah. What were your jobs before, and then how did you find jobs in Singapore without any contacts there or any knowledge really of the country?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:11:40    That is an excellent question. So <laugh>, the short answer is, it, it really did take a lot of work. So, um, at that time, um, and, and I'll, I'll go first because I was the one who came up with the idea in the first place and then pushed us both so hard to get there. Um, so I was working in a client service role in, um, in marketing and specifically within an advertising agency. And I, I became aware of Singapore as a potential place that I, I might like to, you know, move us to or think about or at least try to get a job in, um, because it is, um, one of the only English speaking Asian countries. So, um, English is the bus, the, the language of business. So the potential for integration and for actually landing a job is, is so much better.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:12:33    Um, so I had the benefit of, um, being part of a global network of companies through the advertising agency that I worked at. Now, my own agency would never in a million years transfer me to their Singapore branch. It just never worked that way, because if you're doing a good job in your local office, um, why would they ever want you to go anywhere? However, I was able to use that international network. So in the evenings after work, I would get onto LinkedIn and I would reach out to all the CEOs of all of the, um, leading agencies within Singapore and let them know, Hey, we're part of the same network. Just wanted to connect with you, love to have an informational chat with you at some point. I'm interested in looking at opportunities there. Um, so it was that tough work of building out a network absolutely from scratch that paved the way. And then the interviews, um, led to, to more interviews and eventually, um, uh, we both made a visit out to Singapore to do some more formal -- 

Kristin:    00:13:41    No, he went for a year and he took a different route and it took him 10 months to find a job, and he only had that job for two months before he quit and went somewhere else. So I think it's so interesting to see like these two different approaches to finding a job in Singapore <laugh> and how you did that. So it sounds like you got jobs and then stayed and got that work visa.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:14:05    Yeah, so we, we had, um, uh, employment passes that were sponsored by our employers. Um, there are some different options, like there are some entrepreneurial, um, passes as well. Um, but they've, they've been tightening the requirements on a lot of these things. Um, so my understanding is it's a bit harder to get all the, all the types. Um, but the main thing is, uh, if you have an employer who wants to sponsor you, they just have to be able to prove that they had tried to source locally, weren't able to find, um, anyone within Singapore with the experience, um, that, you know, the, and credentials that, that you have, and then they're able to put up the paperwork, um, to make that happen. I I will say, um, we have both had three jobs while we were in Singapore for those six years. And each time, in fact, the paperwork part of it was quite easy. So once the employer had decided they wanted to hire us, so each of those times that we got jobs, um, it was processed rather quickly. So the system is very well set up as long as they, um, they can show that they went through the proper process.  

Kristin:    00:15:23    Okay. So I have a lot of expat friends in Singapore. I've actually only been to the airport there a couple times on layovers, which I felt like that was a vacation in itself because Singapore's Changi airport is like the best in the world. Um, but the, the friends that I have who live there, they completely rave about it and love it. It seems like the lifestyle is almost addicting because it's so pleasant. I mean, of course you have the heat, but everything seems to work well. There's nice amenities, um, there's all of the, the luxury and, and things like that. So how did you find the expat lifestyle like there? And, um, did you love it <laugh> because you were there for six years, so what was kind of your daily life like?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:16:11    Yeah, I mean, we really loved it. There. It is the kind of place that is, it's very easy to settle in. Um, you can find a lot of the things that you might find back home. So it makes it comfortable in that respect. And yet there are also a lot of exciting things in terms of, you know, the culture and experiences. So it kind of has that, that nice balance between both. And then of course you have all of Southeast Asia on your doorstep connected by budget airlines. So you can have these fantastic holidays, you know, every long weekend it's easy to hop off to, you know, Thailand or Malaysia, Indonesia and so on. So, you know, we, we really, uh, enjoyed our time there. Um, and the only sort of thing is after a while you, it kind of sinks in that you're still kind of working that daily grind and that, you know, corporate job, that corporate sort of atmosphere, depending on what you're doing. Of course, maybe for, for us anyway, we were working those, those long hours, you know, sometimes weekends and as time wore on, you know, you start to think, okay, maybe, maybe I would like to switch things up and have a bit of a different lifestyle. But certainly, yeah, we, we enjoyed our time there, um, and, and made the most of it. Absolutely.  

Kristin:    00:17:27    Yeah, I found that that is a bit of a natural trajectory for people who've become digital nomads after being expats. So for people who are listening, just to make the distinction, the term expatriate came through work assignments primarily. So it was used to describe people who went to live in a foreign country for a temporary period, usually a few years, and typically on a work assignment to work in a physical office. And that's sort of what I did when I went to Costa Rica in 2005, was I went to go work in a real estate office. And that is really fun and really great because you get to have a better work life balance compared to what you would get in the US or Canada or, you know, places that are very work centric, just being an outsider in that country and kind of having more of the adventure.  

Kristin:    00:18:23    But after, I think it was about six or seven years of working in real estate, that's when I decided to work for myself because I felt like I was still limited, even though I could travel more, you know, more often than when I was living in Florida, that I still was kind of chained to the office and to actual physical real estate properties that I was showing. So at what point during your time in Singapore did you find out about the concept of the fire lifestyle, which we talked about with, uh, Eric Richards from Nomad on Fire on a previous podcast. So for anyone listening, if you wanna find out more details on that, I'll link to that episode in the show notes. But how did you find out about the concept of fire and how did you start planning for your transition to financial and location independence while you were full-time employees in Singapore?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:19:23    Sure. Those are great questions. So I'll give Gillian the credit here in terms of discovering the concept, because I will admit that for many years in our relationship, she, she had a couple messages she was trying to say to me. She was trying to say, I don't think I wanna work in an office and sit at a computer for the rest of my life. So that was one thing. And then the other thing she was trying to say is, by the way, if you look at the financials, actually we could retire a lot earlier than the traditional age. Um, unfortunately I wasn't ready to receive the message yet because I was very much caught up in my career and building that out and climbing the ladder. Um, it was only, um, about four, four and a half years into our time in Singapore when I was, I was truly burnt out.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:20:15    So I was in my, my final job in Singapore. Um, and you know, as usual, as you, you know, move into more senior levels, the, the responsibilities just become soul crushing, and then the hours, it's just expected that you're always available. Um, so the weekends really piled up for me, and I was finally ready to discuss with Gillian these different ideas that she had been trying to talk to me about, trying to engage me in this conversation. Um, but the, I guess it, it really came together for me after I had worked, I, I, I had just finished just a very tough year of so many weekends, so I guess I was feeling particularly receptive. And she passed along a blog that she had found, um, called Our Next Life. And she had tried to share blogs previously with me before about financial dependence and retiring early.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:21:09    But, um, it was only one that was written by someone who was sort of, you know, similar professional, um, you know, in, in a corporate career that it, it clicked for me and I finally understood, wait a second, this is something I can get on board with. This is something that I could do. I could have a different life. I could walk away from work, I could organize my finances. So that was, that was the turning point for me. And then, and then we got into the hard work of, of getting ready to, to actually become financially independent.  

Kristin:    00:21:43    Yeah, it seems that this societal programming takes so long to unravel just the, even the concept that you could retire realistically before age 40, it just seems too good to be true, but it's really quite achievable and attainable. And I would love to hear how you did that while living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. So here you are at the top of the career ladder totem pole, so to speak, because you have super successful careers, you know, jobs that are very important, that look really good on a resume. You've relocated yourselves to Singapore, which is an expat heaven. And you know, you're basically at the, the top of the food chain when it comes to that linear American dream, but also Canadian dream, you know, the kind of on paper, like good job, lots of money, success, you know, checking all of those boxes.  

Kristin:    00:22:41    And then you find yourself there, you're like, we have all this stuff and we're in a cool place and we're still traveling, but we're also burnt out, and we would like to, you know, pull back on that. So pull back on that nine to five grind and do something different. So to basically give up everything that you had worked your whole careers for and, and go in a different direction, I mean, that's very compelling. So how did you whittle down your cost of living in Singapore to achieve F.I.R.E? Or, so first of all, what was your financial goal? If you could share that with us, like, how much money did you want to have saved up before you could consider yourself financially free? And then what were the changes that you made to bring your monthly cost of living down so that you could achieve that goal?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:23:31    So the good news is we had established, uh, good savings habits very early on. In fact, when we met how long, 13 years ago, you know, we, we had already both paid off any debts that we had from, from school and, you know, had been starting, starting to save. And so by the time we reached Singapore, we were in a, you know, uh, had, had made some, some inroads. And then during our time in Singapore, um, we, we were paying, uh, lower taxes. So we were in a position to be able to increase our savings rate. Now, of course, uh, as you mentioned, you know, uh, some of the trappings that exist in Singapore and that there's a lot of potential for lifestyle inflation, which to be perfectly honest, you know, we did dip a toe in here and there, you know, after a few years, you're, you're earning money, you don't have a goal of retiring, and so you start to say, Hey, like, why not enjoy this fancy buffet or, or, you know, a bit more of a lavish vacation.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:24:33    But fortunately, we, we pulled ourselves back, um, just before things really got out of hand when we realized we had this other goal, a goal that we really would get a lot more value out of, and that being the goal of retiring early. And so that really made it easy for us to make those decisions, um, to, to adjust our lifestyle. And so we, we did take some, some major steps. Um, you know, we reduced the size of, uh, the, our apartment down to a studio. Um, we, what were some of the big ones? Definitely dining out was cut way, way back. And, you know, we, we made all these changes, cut our, our costs by 40%, but we didn't feel like we were missing out, you know, in fact, we were feeling more energized and excited about life than ever. So that's one of the key messages that I, I want people to take.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:25:26    You know, sometimes the F.I.R.E movement gets described as, oh, you know, you have to cut all the joy out of your life and be super frugal. Well, you, you can if that's your choice, and if that's what you wanna do, but I think it's really more, um, assessing, you know, what really brings you value and cut out the things that don't bring you value. And so with that, um, we were able to, um, meet, meet our, our targets within, uh, a couple years. And I think the key thing was once we had to figure out, before we knew how much money we would need to save, we had to figure out what it was that we were wanted to do. You know, uh, when we were first trying to figure out things out, we knew what our monthly expenses were in Singapore. Well, if you, if we wanted to retire in Singapore, we definitely would've had to work quite a bit longer. But in fact, we knew we wanted to be traveling and we wanted to spend at least, you know, part of the year in lower cost countries. And so we realized actually, um, you know, we, we came up with something workable for us.  

Kristin:    00:26:27    So for people listening, there's, from what my understanding is that 500,000 saved as like F.I.R.E light <laugh>, is that the right term for it?   

Steph & Gillian:    00:26:40    Like a lean, F.I.R.E lean  

Kristin:    00:26:41    F.I.R.E or lean F.I.R.E, F.I.R.E F.I.R.E lean. Yeah. Um, and then seven figures is regular F.I.R.E. Could you share kind of what side of the spectrum you are on with that?

Steph & Gillian:  So all depends--

Kristin:  Just so people know how it's attainable.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:26:55    Yeah. It really all depends on where you plan to spend your time and what you want your lifestyle to look like. So, you know, like fi $500 in San Francisco won't get you anywhere, but you know that that same money in a small town in another state could go a lot farther. So it really depends. I think, um, uh, there are some, maybe a bit, um, alternative ways that you might wanna to, to look at how to figure things out. Um, one, one approach is to, um, determine what you anticipate your, uh, month, your, uh, annual spending needs would be. And then you multiply at a minimum by 25 times that amount at a minimum. But if you wanna be more conservative, you wanna multiply it by 33 perhaps, um, or, or higher. So it kind of depends on how, how much, how comfortable you are with risk. But there have been some studies to back up that if you have 25 times your annual needs or higher, and, uh, those savings are invested in the markets in a diversified portfolio, um, that, that statistically speaking, should, uh, should last you for, for, uh, an early retirement.  

Kristin:    00:28:11    Okay. So it was about four, four and a half years in to your six year stay in Singapore when you decided to go for this, and then it only took you a year and a half to become financially free, or how long did it take? Once between the time you decided and you started cutting your costs to win, you stepped on a plane and left for good  

Steph & Gillian:    00:28:35    <laugh> that That's right. You actually, you have the timeline correctly. So, um, you know, it was around that four year, four and a half year mark. And then, and then really at six years, so just, um, this past October, 2019, we were able to step on that plane very excited and fly off to Europe. Um, so, um, while we, while we had this sort of very sh- it would seem in, in light of like our entire careers, a relatively short amount of time when we really buckled down and worked towards a school, as Gillian said, it was built on the back of, um, we were generally, you know, very good savers. Um, Gillian in particular had always been very frugal. I was trying to be a little bit more frugal and investing of course. And, and the key thing was the investing. Um, so with all of that in place actually, um, by the time, um, we, we really understood the concept of financial independence and, and how we could retire early. In fact, we had a very strong base already. So it was just the sort of like, you know, final year and a half to, to, to get our house in order to, to really understand, you know, what is the cost of living that we, we need to be working within, um, So it was, it was that final period of time that really made the difference and made us ready for the life that we have today.  

Kristin:    00:30:02    Yeah, that's really great advice because I've heard my friend Ayo, the author who was on the podcast a few months ago, he has this concept of this two week rule where if you make a decision to do something and then you commit to it for two weeks every day that you're kind of in. And I mean, that's not based on science because there's research that shows that it takes 21 days to form a habit or 66 days to form a habit. But the concept is the same, that once you make that decision, like if somebody listening is like, I want to save X amount of money, or I want to retire early, it's like once you decide and you take those steps and you start doing it, it can happen a lot faster than you think, whether it's saving money or paying down debt or losing weight or learning a new skill or whatever it is.  

Kristin:    00:30:55    And Ayo has applied this to his business. He applied it to lose, I think like 50 or 60 pounds in, in a year because he changed his diet and started going to the gym and just stuck with it. And I also have a friend, Jake, who I met at a YouTube conference last year, and he had a guy on his podcast who paid down, I think it was around 60 to $70,000 of student debt in one year just by living in a van. And he basically was eating like <laugh>, I don't know, ramen noodles every day. So that was definitely a different type of lifestyle where he was suffering, uh, pretty much for a year to pay off. It wasn't even a year, it was only nine months.

Steph:  Wow.

Kristin:  But it just goes to show that if you really buckle down and you commit to that one goal that you can make it happen.  

Kristin:    00:31:51    And it's just that having that awareness of what it is that you want in life, which it sounds like you both spent a lot of time thinking about that, discussing it and asking yourselves the right questions and then going and doing it. So I think that people would be surprised with how much they can decrease their cost of living by just being really intentional and detail oriented about what they're spending. And in just a year, if they could drop their spending by 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% or even more, you know, there's no real limits. It's all about how creative you can be and how much you can put off your enjoyment of the moment today for a better tomorrow, as long as it's not too far away. But yeah, you could really combine that with earning more money and investing that savings starting to and make something happen.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:32:48    Yeah. I was just gonna add to what you were saying, 'cause starting to track your savings was something that really helped us to figure out, okay, it's like one thing to say, oh, I need to, I need to save more. But probably, you know, you're, you're, you're paying your bills, you say, what's, what's, where's the more gonna come from? So once we started tracking what we were actually spending our money on, it became a lot easier to figure out those things that we were willing to let go of. Um, so yeah, that was the big thing. We, we just got a little, a little app in our phone. We would just log everything we spend, like every dollar we spend, and then at the end of the month we'd sit down and say, Hey, like, which of these things is really bringing us value? And which of the things we could really let go? So that was super helpful to really have a clear picture of where our money was going to help us, you know, uh, dial in our, our spending.  

Kristin:    00:33:37    Yeah. Because that cost of living creep is real and it happens to everyone. And even as a full-time, digital nomad, it, I mean, it's really easy for your expenses to spiral out of control when you're traveling full-time, but or when you're eating out a lot and things like that. And I've looked at my credit card statement and I'm like, oh my god, I wasted so much money on, you know, coffee this month or something like that, or on hotels and Airbnbs and things. So, but again, I, I came from a family where my parents taught me about saving, but I really learned through my grandparents, um, my mom's parents who immigrated from Romania and Italy and they just had very normal jobs. Like my grandma was a secretary in office and then my grandfather became a pilot, he was an engineer and then became a pilot.  

Kristin:    00:34:33    And they made really, really average middle class, uh, income. They lived in Florida, they worked for Pan Am, but they saved everything. And they became millionaires so early on. And so they had these just normal jobs, but then they got to travel for free and then they bought all of this real estate and they retired fairly early, I think like before they had to, because Pan Am was filing, it was before Pan Am filed for bankruptcy. So they retired, it was like when I was born basically. So they've been retired my whole entire life. And um, it was just because they saved and they kept their expenses low. So that's just good advice overall.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:35:13    Yeah. It's that, that whole millionaire next door thing, right, <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:35:16    Yeah. Yeah. And it's something that we don't learn in school <laugh>, which is something, we've talked about this before, so on this show before. So, okay. So, um, so you've achieved fire, you're ready to leave Singapore. What were some of the destinations that you had planned out for your first financially free? Or did you plan at all? Like how far out did you plan?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:35:42    We, we did plan. So, um, after having just spent all this time exploring Asia, we were quite keen to, um, to go to Europe. We had been to some countries in Europe, especially Western Europe. So we were interested. We had heard, you know, Eastern Europe is actually quite, uh, affordable and an area like very, has a very interesting history. And so that's really where we wanted to go, sort of central and Eastern Europe. And, and that's what we did. So we, um, checked, uh, took a look at where, where we could fly, where could we fly direct, because, um, I don't think we mentioned yet. We're actually traveling with our two little poodles with us. And so they ride with us in cabin. And so we wanted to have a smooth flight with them, just direct flight. And we found that we could get to, to Poland. So that's where we started things off. Um, we spent a few weeks in Poland, uh, went onto the Ukraine and eventually sent, spent a beautiful into the winter in Turkey, which was a fantastic destination. The, the Mediterranean coast there is quite warm in the winter and we enjoyed hiking there. Um, yeah, just really loved Turkey.  

Kristin:    00:36:55    And how long have you been technically retired for? I think I saw it was October of 2019 on your YouTube channel.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:37:03    Yes. So yeah, we'll just be coming up on a year, in another month or two.  

Kristin:    00:37:07    Oh, congratulations.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:37:09    Thank you.  

Kristin:    00:37:10    And those are great destinations. I have chosen Eastern Europe and Central Europe and the Balkans as well, just because of the lifestyle there and to keep my cost of living low. And because there were countries that I hadn't heard much about and I was just curious about them. So, uh, can you share with us what your average monthly cost of living has been since you retired and started traveling full-time?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:37:36    Sure. So actually we, we share very detailed reports on our YouTube channel as sort of part of our, our cost of living sharing. We don't do it for every single month, but we do it when we have, um, you know, a specific month in a country that we'd like to highlight. So for example, um, during the recent lockdown, we spent, um, four months in Toronto and obviously no one wants to watch four months worth <laugh> of living expenses in Toronto. Um, but we do have a selection of our destinations and it looks like, as we went back recently to to review, it looks like our base cost for being in each of those destinations was around $2,500 US. Um, I will say what this doesn't include. So that amount doesn't include our transportation to get into the country. Um, and it also doesn't include any of our, like, personal expenses like clothes or, you know, technology or anything we might be buying for ourselves.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:38:33    We're not big shoppers. I shouldn't say that much, but you know, if we do, yes. Need to pick something up. You know, my earphones literally fell apart, uh, this month and I had to pick some new ones up. Yeah. But yeah, we, we, we keep the, the cost of living, it's really what it would cost, uh, or what it cost us in terms of accommodations, you know, food, both our groceries, our dining out dining, any entertainment, local transportation. Um, but we don't put the things Stephanie mentioned or like our dog expenses for example. 'cause those wouldn't be so relevant to everyone. Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:39:02    Right. And what are you doing for your international insurance?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:39:07    So we have, um, an a global, uh, global plan from Cigna Global. Um, so it's an ex expat policy covers us everywhere in the world except the US because if we wanted coverage in the US it would cost us twice as much and we don't have any plans to go there this year. So that was, uh, just fine for us. We were actually on, um, more of a, a travel medical insurance plan, um, initially, which was SafetyWing. But when, uh, COVID-19 happened and we had to go back to Canada, um, we knew we would, their, their coverage will only cover us a limited time in Canada, whereas Cigna Global will actually cover us much longer. Um, so that was one of the reasons we changed. Plus they'll actually cover, uh, coronavirus, um, should we become sick now. Actually SafetyWing now does cover it. Yeah. But, uh, at the time it did not. So there were a few reasons why we why we switched over.  

Kristin:    00:40:02    Right. Yeah. SafetyWing just covers it as of August of Yeah, 2020. And then, um, how much are, is your Cigna plan for like a couple? Because I know people are all paying different premiums, right. And it depends on your plan and things like that. But for example, if I wanted a policy that covered me in the US and abroad, it could cost like $700 a month or something. But if I just get the travel medical, it could be like a hundred dollars a month.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:40:33    Sure. So I mean the, um, like you said, there are a lot of variables. So of course it depends whether you are just choosing like hospitalization coverage or whether you want something that will also cover like, uh, your outpatient depends on the deductible you choose. Um, which in our case, we really take, take it as somewhat of a catastrophic type coverage. So we would basically, we would need, um, uh, to be hospitalized and for the services to cost over $2,500 before the policy would actually kick in. Um, but for us, you know, we had to kind of balance the risk. Um, for, for, for this, the policy, uh, we got is, uh, a total of $140 per month for the two of us total.

Kristin:  Wow, that's great.

Steph & Gillian:  Yeah. And so that means we expect to have to pay for certain things. Like I'm gonna be getting my teeth cleaned.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:41:22    I'm, um, uh, this this month we're gonna be in, in Croatia in a couple months. And, and I've checked out, we're gonna do our full physicals there and I think it costs like, under, under $300 for a very full physical, including some ultrasounds and all kinds of things. So really for us, it, it makes more sense just to pay for those things instead of have having that comprehensive insurance coverage. So yeah, it just, uh, depends on people's comfort level to kind of take on that risk themselves. Um, but certainly having, uh, something there for those emergency, uh, cases, you know, for those high, high bills that could happen with like a longer term hospitalization, of course you wanna have something in place  

Kristin:    00:42:01    Completely. Yeah. This is the first time that I've been living in the US since college and yeah, it's scary 'cause everything is so expensive here. And I have doctors in like every country. 'cause no matter where I am, I'm like, okay, I need to go to the dentist and uh, or I need to get just like an annual checkup or physical or some test done. And I always just paid out of pocket 'cause it was even cheaper than the time I would spend to claim it on my insurance unless I had to go to the emergency room or something like that, if I got really sick or, or had an accident or something. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a big savings if you can get on that international clan and..   

Steph & Gillian:    00:42:41    I have, have, I actually, I'll give you one little like insider tip. I don't know if you've heard this one, but, um, uh, I noticed that, um, depending on the country that you are, um, like the primary country on, on your policy, the premium changes. So I asked the salesperson, I said, look, we're moving to a new country every, you know, every month. Uh, do I call and change the, change the country on the policy every time? Well, he said that I don't have to do that. I should just either put the first country that I'll be in or the country that I'm spending the most time in. And fortunately, the, the country that we're spending the most time in is on the lower end in terms of, of premiums. So, um, that worked out well for us. And it's something that people might wanna kind of click a few boxes when they're, they're running the premiums through to see what makes sense, uh, working within what their actual travel plans are, of course. But it, it does make a difference, uh, because it changes where they administer the, um, insurance plan from.  

Kristin:    00:43:42    That's a good tip. I actually do that and I'll plug in different destinations if I know that I'm going to five or six different countries and I'll also play around with different terms. So sometimes there's like no difference in price between five months and six months or four months, six months or something like that. And so which country were you spending the most time in?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:44:04    Oh, um, it's going to be Croatia. We're gonna have a full three months there. We were actually supposed to head there, um, in the, in the, in the spring. So, so what, everyone's got their like covid story. So we were, I mentioned we were in Turkey then we were in Italy when the outbreak actually happened, and the

Kristin:  Oh boy.

Steph & Gillian: Yeah. So when everything went crazy. So our original plan had us, um, sailing across, taking a ferry across to Croatia and we were gonna be there and working our way through the Balkans. So that was the big plan. So, um, we ended up back in Toronto as as we covered. And then finally now we're going to be kind of looping back and finally back in Croatia and kind of, uh, the, the, the plan won't look exactly like it would have been, you know, we were going to be a new country every month, um, but now we're gonna be really slowing things down. We'll have most likely a full three months in Croatia. And, you know, just really proceeding with caution, um, you know, keeping, keeping safe and, and you know, with respect to, um, the places we'll be traveling through. But it is nice to kind of finally get to that, that first destination in the Balkans that we had our sights on.  

Kristin:    00:45:13    <laugh>. Yeah, there's definitely a balance between planning too much and not at all. And I err on the side of slow travel, so plug for my Teespring store. I have my slow travel T-shirts in there. You guys should check that out.

Steph & Gillian:    00:45:27    Nice. Yeah, we'll take a look.  

Kristin:    00:45:28    To get you a complimentary co coffee or coffee mug or something, because I think the longer that you're an expat or a digital nomad, the more passionate you become about the concept of slow traveling because you guys had six years of country hopping using Singapore as your home base, kind of that hub and spoke model. But it's a lot different when you are living out of a suitcase and your home is wherever you are, it can be very disorienting and ungrounding to be changing places too quickly. So I am glad that you're already on the slow travel ticket. Yeah. Um, and how has, oh, sorry, go ahead.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:46:10    No, I was just gonna say like I, even before when we would take these short trips, I always found it so frustrating because, you know, you arrive and you know, like you just have to get out there every day, see all the sites, it becomes this very like, pressurized experience. And so I knew, um, it's like I knew right away that slow travel was what, what we wanted to do. And it has certainly like gone, it has gone exactly the way I, I thought, you know, having a month in, in one place does not feel too slow. In fact, you know, I often feel like we could spend longer and, um, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's just a great feeling. Um, you know, each time you walk down a street, like you see more things, you see different things, you get to see familiar faces, you know, hellos. Those things just don't happen when you're just like bouncing from place to place. And, and, you know, we're spending a lot less time actually in transit, which frankly is not my favorite part of travel. I like to agree, experience a place. So yeah, totally with you. On the slow traveling.  

Kristin:    00:47:11    It's just like reading a book more than once when you get to stay in a place longer or you get to go back to a place that you really like, you see it with a different perspective because you're at a different place in your life. You're older, um, even if it's just a few months or a year later, or you see a place in a different time of year in a different season, or you go back to your favorite coffee shop or, you know, it's just that familiarity that's so nice. But, um, even though traveling is the best and living abroad is amazing, I would like to cover a little bit of the darker side of this lifestyle, just because I don't think that we talk about it enough in general as a, as a travel community because there are real challenges that come with, um, with living abroad or being a full-time digital nomad.  

Kristin:    00:48:00    So have you noticed any difference between, I've talked about this in my, like in my nomad summit talks and other, other talks about like the honeymoon period of living in a new country or even being a digital nomad. Did you experience that arc when you went to Singapore and like when you first got there, everything was so amazing and new and different and exciting, and then that arc wore off. Did you also experience that when you became, uh, financially independent and location independent? Or did that kind of get interrupted by the four months stint back in Canada? Like how have you been feeling about the digital nomad lifestyle? Is it like shiny object syndrome still, or, you know, do you kind of feel like, okay, this is daily life, there's ups and downs, there's pros and cons, bring us into that, uh, situation.   

Steph & Gillian:    00:49:00   Sure. Um, so I'll cover first from the, the perspective of being the expat. Um, so there is definitely that honeymoon period as you mentioned. And, and it's funny because I've had many conversations with other expats in Singapore about the same thing. Um, it's very usual when people arrive in a new country, um, especially if you don't know how long you'll be there. And often it's just two to three years and there's a race to have as many experiences as possible because you don't know how long this amazing thing is going to last. And even when we moved over, what we said to everyone is, oh, you know, we're thinking two years. We'll see how it goes. Um, so it was very, it was very exciting those first few years. And we definitely took every opportunity, like every long weekend we wanted to be traveling and seeing everything.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:49:49    Um, and it was really in the second half of the period where, as Gillian mentioned, we sort of came to the realization, Hey, wait a second, even though we're in kind of a tropical paradise, we're still actually working for a living and work is really hard. Um, and it looks like it's just gonna keep going for years and years and just getting harder and harder. Um, so there was a, a little bit of the disillusionment and kind of wondering about other things. Um, now for becoming financially independent and retiring early, we were so excited that I, I just can't even tell you the, the lead up to actually leaving Singapore. So we were, um, we had both, um, given notice at our jobs. The notice period in Singapore is two months, so it's a very long notice period. So a lot of tension was building there.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:50:39    Um, during that countdown, we were getting rid of everything we owned, uh, we were preparing to travel full time, and in fact, Gillian worked the full day before we actually got on a plane and took off to Poland. Um, so it was just so exciting and that sense of excitement and discovery and wonder at, you know, arriving at each of our destinations, it was, um, so pronounced for us. We, we were just, just really in that honeymoon stage. Um, and I would say that, um, we're still in the honeymoon stage, so it did get interrupted. Um, you know, and like everyone else, we had to kind of seek shelter, um, during the most critical months of the pandemic when all the borders were closing. And I, I feel like basically, you know, everyone who was traveling had to head home, which is what we did. Um, and we had to kind of cool our heels. But now that we are back, I feel that we're just as excited as we were originally, although we've learned a lot since then. Um, so we've, you know, we've become a bit smarter travelers and as you mentioned, sort of savoring more the slow travel and not being so keen to push onto the next destination, but really, um, like take the time where we are.  

Kristin:    00:51:56    Right. Because do you plan on living this way forever or do you think that you'll settle down in another country for a few years or ever go back to Canada? Or what are some of your plans?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:52:10    Um, I, I think this, this, this, uh, period is really about trying, trying different things in each place. We have a bit of a different lifestyle, um, based on where we are. Although I will say we, we do like to have certain routines, um, you know, healthy routines, especially with the dogs, it makes it easy. You know, we like to start the day with a walk. We always work out wherever we are, you know, cooking healthy meals and so on. So there is sort of that regularity, but also, you know, being in different places, we kind of get a feel for, for different lifestyles that helps us think about what we do want, uh, in the future. Um, I, we certainly don't have one fixed idea, like, oh, we're gonna do this for a certain number of years and then we're gonna do that for a certain number of years. Um, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point we, you know, find places that we like that we tend to head back to maybe stay for longer. Um, maybe have some bases that we know, uh, spend part of the year going to new places and part of the year staying there. But really it's just something that's going to gonna evolve and, and the beauty of our current lifestyle is that we can be open to that and to open to change and adjust, um, based on how we feel.  

Kristin:    00:53:27    Yeah, it's the unknown, but it's something that everyone's experiencing whether or not they're traveling right now or living abroad. And are there any, it seems like you guys are a great team, but are there any challenges that you've experienced traveling together as a couple, and especially as a same-sex couple? Have you experienced any kind of discrimination in different countries? Because I'm always cognizant of how people's travel experiences can unfortunately be based on like who they are, what they look like, how old they are, and there's different challenges whether you are a black male digital nomad or like a 22-year-old single female, or a couple or a same-sex couple or retired or like what your age is. I feel like depending on where you go, that's something that people can be afraid of. It's like, am I going to be as welcome in this country compared to another country? Should I avoid this place? Is it too dangerous? So I was wondering what your experience has been with that.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:54:32    Our experience has been great so far. We have not encountered any, any issues being a same-sex couple. We are, you know, often booking an Airbnb with just one bed. Hosts don't bat an eye. I think they're used to seeing everyone and everything come through their, their places. Um, I think we probably have more challenges just traveling as, um, two people with two dogs, <laugh> most likely. Um, right. Um, but in terms of the, the challenges that we just have as a regular couple, um, what we have found is I think that we, while we love spending time together, um, we, we didn't really think through that we would be spending all of our time together because of course, when we were holding jobs, we were, um, away from the house for most of the day. So we'd only see each other for, you know, short periods in the evening or a little bit of time that we're having on the weekend. Um, so I think that's something as a couple to be aware of, that, you know, suddenly you're spending, you know, every day, every evening, um, together and how important it is to be really good at communicating with each other and also, um, cultivating your own interests and spending time apart so that you can enjoy that time together even more.  

Kristin:    00:55:54    And have you met other people. I know you've really only been traveling for a few months, but have you kind of created a new remote social network or have you met locals or other expats in the countries that you're traveling to?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:56:11    Yeah, so I think one of the reasons why we wanted to, uh, start our YouTube channel was to connect with other people and to try and build, uh, you know, that sense of community on the road. And it's actually been really great. Um, we have made a number of virtual friends, um, you know, that we, we contact regularly and we also got to meet up in person with, um, with, uh, a blogger friend. Um, it's a, actually the person who inspired us to travel with our dog, 'cause she travels with her dog. Um, our, our friend Gigi Griffiths, and we met up with her in Florence, uh, a couple times. So yeah, it's been really great. Um, you know, starting, starting to build up that, that community and feel less isolated and to have conversations with someone other than each other. <laugh>  

Kristin:    00:56:59    <laugh>. Yeah, I've, I've found that too. Having a YouTube channel and a podcast has been a great way to make remote friends. It's, it's almost gotten to the point where I feel so lucky 'cause I have thousands of friends around the world, but at the same time, sometimes I feel a little bit alone because there's just not enough time in the day to connect with everybody, whether it's my personal friends or digital nomad friends or, or people, um, in the audience that are in my Facebook group or, or commenting. It's like, I wish I just had 72 hours in a day <laugh> to connect with people. So sometimes it can feel a little bit, a little bit isolating in a weird way, but I think that's also just because of the pandemic that we haven't really seen anyone in real life in a while. It's all been through that screen, you know, through that interface. But, um, what are some of your tips for traveling with the two dogs? Because I, I plan international relocations and we have people with dogs, cats, and there's always the pet passport and different things that people need to get. So what are some of the most common requirements for, um, bringing dogs into a new country?  

Steph & Gillian:    00:58:20    Um, so for Europe it's, it's pretty easy. You mentioned the pet passport, and that's a great thing about Europe is once you, once you have it and you keep the vaccinations up to date, specifically the rabies vaccination up to date, then you can really travel around anywhere, um, for, for other, other countries around the world. I, I think the main thing is you need to go to the source, find out what is needed for each of those countries. There's some countries that might require you to have, um, uh, babies titer tests. So basically it's a blood test that has to be done quite far ahead of travel. So in all cases of traveling with your dog, I think the main thing is, um, you can't be quite as last minute, um, because you need to check the requirements and sometimes take actions a while ahead.  

Steph & Gillian:    00:59:07    And, um, I will say if for anyone who, um, doesn't have a dog yet and would like to get a dog to travel with, I strongly recommend a small dog because if you can bring them in the cabin with you, it just makes things way easier. Um, having a larger dog that has to travel, you know, as cargo certainly is less enjoyable for, for, for the dog and for you. Um, yeah, so that's not really something that I would, you know, um, uh, seek out voluntarily. Um, and yeah, if you're traveling with a dog, I think keeping it slow, once again, a plug for slow travel because they need their, their routines as well. Um, and, uh, if you keep those routines in place, um, we've been finding that they settle in like very easily. We arrive at a new Airbnb, we do travel with their little dog beds, and as soon as we throw those beds down, they're like, oh, okay, we're staying here. It's fine, <laugh>. And they settle in right away. And, and it helps us to feel like the, the next place is, is home to us as well. Um, yeah.  

Kristin:    01:00:11    Yeah, it might take a little bit more planning to travel with kids or a dog or, or as, or a partner. I've traveled with a lot of my past partners and it's always a different dimension there, but it keeps things interesting and anything is possible. So I wanna get to a lightning round with some of your favorite places, travel hacks, things like that. But first I was curious, just one more question before we move on. Um, since the pandemic, has your income changed at all? And can you give us a little bit of insight into the type of asset mix or investment mix that you guys are living off of, um, for people to kind of get a visual of what it's like after, you know, after you retire. Like what type of income can you live off of from your investments?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:01:07    Sure. So, um, we hold a mix of equities and fixed income. So for equities, it's uh, uh, global, global index fund. Basically we hold a slice of the world in a low cost index fund. Um, and then on the fixed income side of things, we're invested in something called syndicated mortgages. So basically these are our large mortgages for construction projects. They're short-term, short-term mortgages, um, uh, while, while, while the dwellings get built and they're split up amongst many different, uh, uh, many different lenders. So in that way you can participate in many of them and kind of diversify your risk. So, um, this is something that yeah, we have quite, quite some years of experience with. I wouldn't say it's a very, um, not for, not for like sort of novice, uh, investors, not for everyone, but it's something that we've been, uh, working with for a while and we're able to really screen the deals and do all our due diligence to select the right ones.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:02:11    Um, so on that side of things, um, the current climate has affected things a little bit in that some of those mortgages have matured, um, and basically paid the principal out and there haven't been, uh, as many new deals available. So it just means that, um, we have, uh, a bit of cash that's ready to be reinvested. Um, so we we're not, you know, lo, losing money. Um, but you know, it's just a bit of, uh, just a delay in terms of, uh, remaining invested. But in terms of our, our equities, I think, uh, we've all sort of seen how the market went down and came back up. I mystified about why it's up now, but

Kristin:  Same!

Steph & Gillian:  Doesn't really change our, our buy and hold strategy. Um, you know, we're just leaving leaving that there for the long term. So yeah, we'll just kind of watch and see. Um, uh, so our, our income is coming in from our, those fixed income investments. And so although some of them have have matured, there's still the bulk that's invested and, and we have those regular interest payments coming in to, to more than cover all our living expenses. So, um, so yeah, so far our carefully planned strategy is, is working and we have, um, all our mis risk mitigation, mitigation, um, uh, plans all in, in place. Um, so so far the things are working out.  

Kristin:    01:03:37    Wonderful. That's so interesting. And yeah, I'm also was, I was wondering how the markets bounced back so quickly and why they did not go back down, but, well, that's another conversation <laugh>. Um, and are you working on actively developing new revenue streams now that you have all of this free time ? 

Steph & Gillian:    01:03:59    <laugh> Well, I wouldn't call it a revenue stream at all. Much of our, um, so we, I would say that we, in our day we like to do some creative projects as well as doing fitness and spending time with their dogs and seeing the local sites. So our creative project is in fact our YouTube channel, um, which is technically monetized, but I think you would know as having your own YouTube channel that that is a very tiny amount of money that comes in. Um, and our hope is that one day it pays for the actual cost of running the channel. Um, so I wouldn't really call it a revenue stream. It's more of, uh, a hobby <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:04:39    Yeah, that was my goal at the beginning too, and I just achieved that.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:04:43    Oh, congratulations.  

Kristin:    01:04:46    Now I'm like, now how do I live off of this? But that's the cool thing about, um, these creative projects is that much like life, it's not linear. So what can start as a tiny trickle of income can grow exponentially really quickly. And you know, it took me a year to grow my channel to 1000 subscribers, and now I'm, um, my channel's growing at about 1000 subscribers per week. Wow. So, and, and that's just, you know, it's just a metric, but it's interesting to look at at numbers because, you know, you could make $0 per month on your YouTube channel for like years. And I know people that it took them years to even get monetized because you have to have so many hours of watch time and a thousand subscribers to be able to monetize your channel. Um, but then there's other people that, it took them a couple months to get monetized and they had one video that went viral and then they started making a full-time income off YouTube.  

Kristin:    01:05:51    So everyone has a different experience. And I think the main takeaway is just to do things that interest you, that you think are fun and creative, and then see what happens from there. And if you can turn a passion project into an income source, um, down the road, that's just a bonus. Um, I just did <laugh>, my podcast listeners know this more than anybody, but I have always had the dream of learning how to dj. Not because I wanted to be a dj, but just because I really liked electronic music and I wanted to be able to play whatever I liked at home and like mix different songs together. And I used to do it on tape decks, and then I never had record players, but tape decks. And then, um, more recently, I, I bought a controller and I just had my first live stream a couple days ago, which <laugh> wasn't very good, but I am so proud of myself for doing something like something creative that is not to make money, it's just for fun.  

Kristin:    01:07:00    And it was really scary and got me out of my comfort zone. And once you do that thing once, like once you get the courage to play a live DJ set for strangers on the internet or to start a YouTube channel, when you have no experience with making videos or whatever that thing is that people wanna do, it's like over time you do become better at it and you have more fun and you learn stuff and then you never know what can happen from there. Like, since I did this set, I don't know why, but I think it's something with the Instagram algorithm has been associating me with the music production Instagram pages website. And so now all of these DJs are like following me on Instagram <laugh>. And I got some like, private messages and now I make, might make a video for a really big DJ who, when she comes to Miami next, because now I know how to make videos from YouTube and it's like, you can make all these friendships and have all these fun things that come out of starting it. And even your YouTube channel, like we probably wouldn't have connected if both of us didn't have YouTube channels. So here we are <laugh> an open, open, and now I'm learning  

Steph & Gillian:    01:08:18    A lot, all kinds of doors for sure.  

Kristin:    01:08:20    Yeah, I've, I've really am so inspired now to like take a fine tooth comb through my books because it's the end of the month, it's time to do some accounting. And as a small online business owner, I have so many expenses and so many subscriptions and I'm just like, oh my god, these are just draining my bank account every month. So I'm really gonna take an assertive approach to that. And I hope that everybody listening does too, because as I heard from somebody recently, your monthly subscription is someone else's passive income <laugh>. So t.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:08:54    That's right

Kristin:    01:08:54    Make sure that  you're balancing those expenses with income people. Okay, let's get to the lightning round. What is, um, one of your top money saving travel hacks?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:09:08    Booking Airbnbs for a month or longer? You can just save so much, you know, minimum like 30 to 40% over shorter stays.  

Kristin:    01:09:18    And do you ask the owners for long-term discount?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:09:21    Yes. Even if they put one, we still ask, unless it's already like so cheap that we feel like we're gonna insult them. Uh, we generally do ask.  

Kristin:    01:09:31    Okay. What are some travel apps that you rely on most often?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:09:38    I guess it would be, it's actually the Airbnb app is, I mean, I spend hours dreaming about every new place that we might be going to. So that, that one is pretty central to our travel experience. And I have to say it's not specifically travel related, but um, as we travel, we always log all our expenses. So we use, you need a budget to log it, and that helps us stay on the road longer because, uh, you know, we're keeping all within our budget, um, from month to month.  

Kristin:    01:10:09    Yes. Love those budgeting apps. They're so addictive. And what digital bank account do you use while you're traveling abroad?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:10:18    Ooh, uh, I, it's, it's, I don't know if it's considered a digital bank account. Uh, we bank with HSBC. Uh, we opened our account with them because, you know, they're global. We were able to have accounts in Canada, Singapore, and they do have an app. So yeah, we just do all our banking online through the app. And we also use, uh, but this is more for our investments. We use interactive brokers as well. Yes, interactive brokers for -Yes, for our investing and sub currency conversion, yes.  

Kristin:    01:10:45    Okay. And do you use any travel credit cards?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:10:51    Yes. So our credit card is actually from HSBC as well, not because we had brand loyalty, but they actually had a great card available. Um, so this would be only relevant for, for Canadians. Um, but yeah, they have a card that has no foreign exchange fee and then you get 3% back on any travel purchases.  

Kristin:    01:11:11    Okay. That's good. And are you loyal to any international airlines? Um, like are you types of miles members or do you just go for the local budget airlines?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:11:23    We, we go for whatever is cheapest and we'll also accept our dogs, so all right. We, we have absolutely no loyalty, although, uh, you know, where it's appropriate, we'll certainly collect up the points, but that is never the, the driver for the decision.  

Kristin:    01:11:38    Okay. And do you have any books or websites or resources that you recommend for people who are interested in the F.I.R.E lifestyle or maybe even your own?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:11:51    Well, I <laugh> since you said your own, I guess we'll mention. So the name, uh, of our, uh, we have the, the, sorry, we have the YouTube channel, but also we have a blog, uh, called Our Freedom Years, so you can follow us. Um, but maybe I'll just also mention the one that sort of, uh, was the one that got Stephanie on board, which is Our next life, um, which was a great source of inspiration for us, um, as a relatable couple, um, that we got a lot of value out of their writing as well.  

Kristin:    01:12:25    Awesome. And what advice do you have for people who are listening who might be where you were seven, eight years ago before you went to Singapore?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:12:37    In, in terms of travel? Like people who might be interested in working overseas or?  

Kristin:    01:12:43    Yeah, people who have this idea that their lives can be different, that either they can live in another country or they can travel full time, but it still seems far out of reach because they're still in that typical daily nine to five and they haven't started yet --with their implementation of their dreams.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:13:04   Yes, I, I would say, I would say dream big, but also at least take one step forward. Um, so when we, as, as you heard from our story, we had no connections, we had no friends, we didn't know any companies in Singapore. We knew nothing, um, but we just started by reaching out on LinkedIn, trying to make those connections. So it was just those small simple steps. Um, but it was also because we were so motivated by this big crazy dream of doing something that we didn't know anyone else who had done something like this. Um, but that we decided to make happen.  

Kristin:    01:13:41    Awesome. And can you give us your top, everyone always says what's your favorite destination, but give us like your top three favorite travel destinations that you think you'll be going back to in the future.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:13:57    Uh, okay. It's so hard. You know, we did, we actually, uh, did a, a bucket list video of places we'd been that we would wanna go back to. So there's a whole 10 there, but if we were gonna shorten it down to three, I would say, um, Turkey, I mentioned that we already this year spent two and a half months there and I would definitely like to go back. Um, it's a place that I hadn't heard a lot about beforehand in terms of, uh, travel, but I think it has a lot to offer and somewhere I really enjoyed the other place that we would like to spend some time in. And <laugh> we've been, um, also getting a lot of encouragement from our audience following us on YouTube is Portugal. Um, so it's a place that I have been to only very briefly for a couple weeks Gillian's never been to. Um, so it's, it's a place that um, I think has a lot to offer, um, a pretty good cost of living and just a lot of variety in the landscape. So we're, we're looking forward to getting there at some point soon and  

Kristin:    01:14:59    Maybe, oh yeah, such a beautiful place.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:15:01    Uh, maybe to round out a third is, is a place that um, unfortunately we won't be able to go back to while we have our dogs because they have a quarantine. But, uh, I would just love to get back to New Zealand to just really explore every inch of it is incredibly beautiful there. We had a wonderful, uh, camper van experience there and that is something that I would love to go back and do one day.  

Kristin:    01:15:26    Oh wow. I haven't been to Turkey or New Zealand, but my niece is named Kōura after a place called Kaikōura in New Zealand. Have you been there?  

Steph & Gillian:    01:15:38    No, we have not been there, but it sounds like Summer should get to Yeah. Oh.  

Kristin:    01:15:43    Um, 'cause her mom did a road trip, like an a camper van trip through New Zealand and just fell in love with it. And so that's been on my bucket list and also Turkey 'cause I just keep hearing amazing things about it and the food and the people and the culture. So really great recommendations there. And so how can people connect with you guys, um, on your website or YouTube channel to follow your journey and support your work? And then we'll link to everything in the show notes.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:16:12    Sure. So, um, we make ourselves available to our audience on YouTube if anyone wants to reach out on our website. And also, um, we have an Instagram as well. So, um, if anyone wants to connect on any of those platforms, we're more than happy. We love hearing people's stories about their own journey and providing any tips where we can.  

Kristin:    01:16:34    So that's called Our Freedom Years, correct? That's right. Okay. Well thank you Stephanie and Gillian for joining us today on the podcast. I'm sure you're ready to go to bed now <laugh>, because it's so late over there. But thank you so much and I hope that we get to connect, um, in real life somewhere soon.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:16:53    Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much for having us, Kristin. It was great speaking with you.  

Kristin:    01:16:57    You are welcome. Bye-Bye.  

Steph & Gillian:    01:16:59    Okay, bye-bye.  

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