How To Live Like a Local Anywhere in the World With Brent and Michael Are Going Places

Sneak Peek:

Brent & Michael:    00:00:00    For us that's what, you know, what travel is all about. That's what makes it great. It's really not the tourist destinations, although sometimes those are fun. Yeah, it's the dinner parties and the eating out and the sidewalk cafés and the exploration and the happy surprises and the connections that you make with the people. That's what it is.

Kristin: Definitely. That's serendipity. 

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin Wilson, Host:    00:00:39    Well, hello there, Kristin, from Traveling with Kristin here, and welcome to episode 137 of Badass Digital Nomads about how to live like a local anywhere in the world. My guests today are my dear friends, Brent and Michael from Brent and Michael Are Going Places. A fabulous blog about two gay guys that sold everything to travel the world and live happily ever after. And they really have. They're like two of the happiest people I know, and I am such a fan of Brent and Michael. I actually met them in 2018 in Bankso, Bulgaria. They were just arriving to Bansko in their first year of being digital nomads as I was just leaving after spending the summer there, and we totally hit it off, we became great friends, and I actually filmed a Digital Nomad Reality Show with them in Bansko that has yet to be released on YouTube. 

Kristin:    00:01:41    And my plan actually was to coordinate the release of their YouTube video with this podcast episode. However, I have failed at that goal. The documentary is still not done yet. So I wanna apologize to Brent and Michael, first of all. Um, and also to you guys who haven't been able to watch it yet, because it's gonna be really cool. Um, but as you may have noticed, we did not have a podcast episode last week for the first time ever in the history of Badass Digital Nomads. And so I wanted to give you guys a little bit of a personal update and some perspective on what's going on with me because I actually haven't even published a YouTube video in about six weeks now, which is unprecedented. I've been publishing one or two videos per week for three years, but things have gotten a little quiet over on the YouTube channel.  

Kristin:    00:02:37    The good news is that I will be back on YouTube in January. I didn't intend to take so much time off. It started with just a week when I was at the, uh, Vid Summit in Los Angeles and then I got sick with the flu for a couple weeks, and then I was launching my signature relocation program called Ready to Relocate, which is something I've been working on the entire year. And it has been such an amazing experience teaching 21 people how to relocate to another country and guiding them through step-by-step, the process of moving abroad, teaching my signature method for the first time, and this is a 10 week program with tons of lessons and videos and audios each week, uh, teaching you how to move to another country. So that has been my focus for the past few months as well as my end of the year relocation planning.  

Kristin:    00:03:40    So depending on how long you've been listening to the podcast, you might know that I've been the owner of a fully remote, fully distributed international relocation company since 2011, and the end of the year is always our busiest time of year, as so many people want to move to another country either before the end of the year or at the beginning of the new year. So that's what I've been up to lately behind the scenes. Also, very, very, very exciting news. <laugh> This news is in no particular order. There's just a lot of exciting stuff going on right now, but I have signed officially my first book deal and the book title Digital Nomads for Dummies will be coming out in the spring of 2022. So I have been writing, writing, writing away on my very first book, and we will have a lot more information coming out soon on how you can pre-order that book, what the book will be about, the table of contents, all of that great stuff. 

Kristin:    00:04:47    And so I announced it actually at Digital Nomad Week last week and wanted to share it with you here today. And so if you are interested in getting your hands on the Dummies Guide to How toBe a Digital Nomad, you can join my weekly email newsletter for updates, and that is at travelingwithkristin.com/subscribe. Kristin with a K and two i's K R I S T I N. Lots of stuff goes out every week either on travel tips, news updates, announcements. So if you wanna stay in my inner circle and be in the know, make sure to join my email list at travelingwithkristin.com/subscribe. And if you're interested in getting my support in your relocation, if you're planning on relocating to another country in the next year, you can apply for a free relocation strategy call with me. Tell me a little bit about your plans for moving to another country and see if it's a good fit for you by going to travelingwithkristin.com/apply.  

Kristin:    00:06:01    So you can get your name on the waiting list right now. We will start to reopen those enrollment calls in January, and the program will reopen in February of 2022. So I'm so excited to share my relocation roadmap with you and live support through weekly group calls throughout the process. Back to our amazing episode today and our guests of the week. Brent and Michael are both seasoned writers and travelers who have been featured across mainstream media. We're talking CBS Sunday morning, one of my favorite shows, Forbes, the New York Times. They have a blog over at BrentandMichaelAreGoingPlaces.com. They're authors, editors screenwriters. Brent has published 14 novels. Michael has written multiple novels and won multiple awards for his writing. And they were both living in Seattle, Washington when they decided, you know what, we're sick of this nine to five grind.  

Kristin:    00:07:07    We're sick of the city living, we're sick of a lot of the stuff that's going on in America. We need a change. And so four years ago they became full-time digital nomads and they swear that they are never quitting. So in today's interview, we're talking about what they've learned in these four years since they've gone nomadic and kind of how their perspective has changed from being beginner digital nomads to seasoned expats and world travelers. We're talking about how to fit in and live like a local anywhere, even if you don't know the language. We're talking about feeling safe, how to adapt to a new place, the highs and lows of living abroad, and lots of fun stories and tips on finding cheap rental properties, avoiding scams. And they're sharing their lessons on why they think you should never plan all of your travel in advance.  

Kristin:    00:08:06    They also share their tips on finding rental properties abroad, share some information on their pricing, their rent prices and cost of living, and lots of tips on living in Turkey and Istanbul, Eastern Europe, and saving money on their cost of living versus how much they spent when living in the US. We're also talking the pros and cons of living somewhere for just one month versus a year or more, and how your understanding of that country's culture changes over time. So definitely make sure to follow Brett and Michael on social media. Hang out with them over in the Badass Digital Nomads Facebook group where they are very active and they're always providing a lot of value. I'm so happy to have them on the show and I promise all of you that we will have their digital Nomad documentary live on YouTube as soon as possible. I want that to be the next video that I publish. So stay tuned for more. Remember to join my email list for book updates and lots more updates. And see you next week on Badass Digital Nomads. Okay, welcome Brent and Michael to Badass Digital Nomads. I am so happy to have you here and, um, Welcome. Where are you right now?  

Brent & Michael:    00:09:28    We are in Istanbul, Turkey, and it's wonderful to be here. This is Brent, this is Michael. Thank you so much for having us. It's been something we've wanted to do ever since we first met you during our first year of being digital nomads all the way back in Bansko, Bulgaria. Wow, that was, what, three years ago? Yeah, just about exactly three years ago.  

Kristin:    00:09:47    I cannot believe it was so long ago. And that was before I actually launched my podcast, but I was still doing interviews and recording a lot of content there, some of it, which we still have yet to come out <laugh> with you guys starring you guys. Um, so I am hoping to coordinate that so that it comes out in the same week of your podcast interview. So that will be very exciting. Everyone can see, they can see you and hear you at the same time and see what has happened since your first year as digital nomads. Right? That was the first year in 2018.  

Brent & Michael:    00:10:24    That was the first year. And, and it's so interesting, you know, when we're, we're doing a website and now we're doing a Substack newsletter and we've always on social media, but it's so interesting keeping a record of your thoughts and then you look back a year or two or three la years later and you think, oh my God, I didn't know anything then. But of course you knew more then than you did the year before that, but it feels like this experience, you just absorbed so much information so quickly. And I mean, I just finished a piece where it's like, I don't feel like I'm a different person. I feel like I'm a, a more focused, clearer version of the person I've always been. But at the same time, my perspective is broader or something. And I I just know so much more. I know so much more facts. It's just really interesting the whole process of being a nomad. Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:11:08    You change so much that you don't even realize that you change, but I think that's kind of how change happens. Like, it, it happens so slowly, so organically, whether you're trying to lose weight or whatever the, the goal is, it's like you don't even realize it until after it happens. And maybe if it's losing weight, you look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, oh my gosh, all of a sudden you look different compared to a photo you saw of yourself five years ago. Yeah.  

Brent & Michael:    00:11:36    Or sometimes, sometimes something will come along that'll put it into sort of a sharp relief. And, and that actually happened to us two nights ago when a local, uh, friend we've made wanted us to, we wanted to go to Hamam here in Turkey a Turkish spa. And he was like, you can't go to one of the tourist ones. I'm gonna gonna take you to the local home mom in the neighborhood where I grew up. And so we piled in a car with him, and then we drove 40 minutes outside of, of our neighborhood, quite a ways away. And then Brent and I were talking later and we both said to each other the same thing that three years ago when we, if we had done something like that, I think we might have been sort of stressed out and wondering what was going on and is something happening?  

Brent & Michael:    00:12:15    Is this, is there something fishy going on here? But we've been doing this long enough now and we've got good senses and, and skills that we just sort of relaxed and and enjoyed the trip and got out there. And I remember thinking, this is different from four years ago, I think four years ago I would've been much more stressed doing this. And now I'm, I'm not stressed at all. So I have changed. And I'm realizing that; The interesting thing about Michael and I is, I am so not an adventurer, you know, I'm an introvert. I'm not a risk taker. I'm a cautious person. I've got irritable bowel syndrome, too much information, <laugh>. But the fact is, I am not sort of a, I'm not the person you think of it. This is like an intrepid adventure going all over the world. And yet by doing it the way we've done it, which is sort of slowly venturing out into the world and paying attention to our, you know, our instincts and our comfort zone, I have realized, oh, the world isn't nearly as scary as I thought. 

Brent & Michael:    00:13:11    Oh, okay. So it's like, as Michael said, you know, we were in a car, only one person spoke English, everybody else spoke Turkish. And Faruk our friend is, is the only guy we knew. And we were, you know, way, way, way into this, this other part of town where tourists don't go. And we were in this 1400 year old home mom, you know, where nobody speak English. And, and it's like, it didn't feel well, it's weird how weird it didn't feel because it's like, this is sort of our life now. And because, you know, we know fe really well, we've gone up to dinner, you know, totally comfortable around him. And it, it's just interesting thinking about the person I used to be. And, and as I said before, I still feel like the same person. I just learned that so much of the world, when you're there, it looks and sounds really scary.  

Brent & Michael:    00:13:56    Like on a YouTube video, you know, they did those YouTube videos of the Europe, of the toilets throughout Southeast Asia, and you think, oh my God. But then when you're there, it's like, oh, this isn't weird. This is normal. This is the way they do it here. And so, like these fears you have when you imagine how it's going to be, the reality is nothing like that. So even somebody like me who is, like I said, not a a natural born adventurer, you just sort of go with it. And I feel like I am such a better person because of it. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:14:24    I love to hear that. Yeah. Like right before we were talking, or right before we started recording and I was explaining my week of Murphy's Law with everything going wrong and the wheel falling off of my car and my refrigerator breaking and all of this stuff, and I'm like, old me. Well, this is now like decades ago, probably would've freaked out <laugh>, but traveler Kristin doesn't care. <laugh> yeah. Traveler Kristin realizes that sometimes things happen in life and, um, you just have to, to keep going. And sometimes you wake up on the wrong side of the bed, but when you travel, those small things can be magnified. It's not just that the bird pooped on you on your way to work, but it's like something serious could actually happen. And so yeah, that puts things in perspective when you go into your day-to-day life and you just become more resilient through travel. I think that's the word that I'm looking for.  

Brent & Michael:    00:15:19    Well, I think the other perspective it, it has given us is that things I used to be annoyed with at home and then I wouldn't tolerate. Mm. I now encounter, you know, here, you know, it's a bad bed or here in Turkey, uh, in Istanbul, our shower is, is leaking massively. And our street is actually kind of louder than we expected. And these are pretty big things that would've bugged me back in my old life. But now I look at it and I go, okay, I've got a leaky shower, I've got a loud street. On the other hand, that Loud street is in the heart of one of the coolest neighborhoods in Istanbul. Yeah. <laugh>. So I'm willing to put up with that because I'm, I'm getting all this other amazing stuff and every time we go someplace we discover what the annoyances are, we discover what the great things are, and the great things almost always outweigh the bad things.  

Brent & Michael:    00:16:04    And it's like, oh, I'll put up with this other stuff in order to get these great things. And, and, and also we, we say this often that every place we've ever been, there are things we absolutely love. And there's also one or two things that really annoy us, annoy the, the crap outta of us <laugh>, but wherever, whatever they are, and wherever we are, it's only going to be four month or two or three, and then we'll move on. So it's like, yeah, you know, there's a lot of live music, although it stops at midnight, you know, and they're pretty good about that. But it, it's only here. It, it will only be that for a week or so, and you can endure anything for a week or a month, and then you move on. And as Michael said, you know, the trade-offs, it's just life is so much richer.  

Brent & Michael:    00:16:39    And it is then, then I think there's also the, the humbling aspect of travel where you see how, you know, the vast, vast, vast majority of the world lives. Oh yeah. And we're complaining about, you know, oh my gosh, this mattress is a lump, or Oh my god, you know, it's like, and you, you just, you put American privilege in perspective and you just feel like an idiot. I just feel like, you know, I, I know you've talked about this in your videos and your podcast, but I just complaining about things that really don't matter and that, oh my God, it's just, you sound like such a privileged, and I mean, I, I understand problems are problems and everybody's allowed to have their annoyances and all of that, and they're real. And, but once you sort of see how most of the world lives, it does put your own problems and perspective.  

Brent & Michael:    00:17:19    And, and if you have a conscience, it is hard to complain in public mm-hmm. <affirmative> about these little things when you realize a lot of people, they don't have refrigerators, you know, they don't have food and you know, oftentimes they don't have an apartment and, you know, they only get meat twice a year or whatever. And, you know, so that's a good thing too. I think we could all, every American could stand to be every middle class American could stand to be humbled a little bit, you know, about how we maneuver our way for the world.  

Kristin:    00:17:45    Yeah, 100%. I think anyone with, um, from a, a very developed country, and it's no one's fault if they're born into this time in life and, and kind of in the lap of luxury when you compare it to billions of other people around the world. But I, I think that travel definitely gives you that perspective. It's so humbling. But then you also learn so much from those people, and then also being exposed to the history Oh yeah. Of the world. Oh yeah. 'cause the US is such a young country, even though North America has been around, not that much survived from, from history that, that we can witness, you know, with our eyes. It's like there's not all of the ruins and monuments that you can see in Europe and the Middle East and other areas of the world, the temples in Asia. And so you see things in real life in real time, but then you also get that layer of the history of that place on top of it, and that really drives it home. 

Kristin:    00:18:50    Oh yeah. Like just all of the information that you accumulate from wandering through museums in Cuba, or Bueno Aires or in Budapest. And, and that to me is what brings it all to life. And then also in my downtime reading books, like I'm reading this, these three books by an author named Candace Millard, and their nonfiction narrative, I highly recommend them. I'll link to them in the show notes. Hmm. And the first one, I think it's Destiny of the Republic. It's about President Garfield. And just to read about how primitive the medical technology, if you could even call it that medical knowledge in the late 18 hundreds was almost nothing compared to what we have today. And to think that air conditioning was invented because he was shot, he was actually assassinated, but he died from his wounds and from his ignorant doctors and not the actual bullet wound that they found out after they did the autopsy, sorry, spoiler alert, <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:19:55    But he, he was bedridden for months, and it was so hot in just horrible conditions. Imagine the White House with no air conditioning, no plumbing, no, no sewage or plumbing in the entire Washington DC basically living in a marsh during summer, having a gaping wound in your back. And this man, he must have been so miserable, he never said a word about it, but his staff was running around trying to find ways to make him more comfortable. And they actually brought in blocks of ice, and somehow were able to create a draft of wind going through the room over the ice to cool down the room because it was so hot. And, and like these things, I mean, this was only, you know, a hundred and something years ago. And, and so that, just that kind of stuff, really, when you look back at how much people have suffered through hundreds of thousands of years up until now, that's humbling too.  

Brent & Michael:    00:20:52    Yeah, it absolutely is. And, and you, you don't wanna deny, you know, the massive injustice of the past, because of course, that's mind boggling too. But at the same time, there is, it's sort of interesting to sort of tap into like ancient wisdom. I mean, unfortunately with a lot of civilizations, you know, there are rituals that evolve to solve a problem that no longer exists, and yet the ritual goes on and causes oppression or whatever. But when you look at like, something like a Hamam where we were last night, and the Hamam was, the building itself was 1400 years old. And the, it's been aam since, uh, 1486. So, wow. And you just look at about the, the ritual, the thing that he did, and you just sort of literally marinate in this ancient wisdom. It's like, of course this is all about, you know, the instruction from Islam about cleanliness.  

Brent & Michael:    00:21:37    You know, that's really important. And so it is this ritualized cleansing, and you just think about in a pre-industrial society, how important that would be in preventing illness and, and creating health. I mean, it's humbling and awesome to think, you know, nobody sat down and thought, how are we gonna solve this, this outbreak of whatever disease? But over the ages, they developed this ritual that, you know, because they survived, because the people who did this survived that this ritual became part of their culture. And then you look at like, the city itself, how the city itself is like an organism. And you compare cities that, ancient cities like Istanbul compared to American cities, and it's like, oh, I understand why Istanbul works, and this American city, Seattle doesn't work. Seattle's a new city, and we tried to build our freeways, you know, we tried to build it with freeways, and there's no mass transit.  

Brent & Michael:    00:22:26    And you know, you've got people live over here and businesses over here and financials over, and that doesn't work. But here in Istanbul, things every neighborhood has, it's sort of self-contained at the same time. It's part of a larger, and it's like an organism. And you sort of see this, you tap into this ancient wisdom that it's also, I mean, it's fascinating and humbling. And of course part of that is, you know, slavery and oppression and sexism, and that's part of it too. You don't want to like deny that because you don't wanna like romanticize the past, right. Because there are all these horrible things. But at the same time, there's like this wonderful thing about humanity that our goal is to survive. And we have survived against all of the odds. And, and we've done that in bad ways, and we've done that in good ways. And even now, you know, there's an authoritarian government here in Turkey that's getting worse. That's, it's weird to be in a country where things are getting worse politically, not better. Although I suppose you could make that case about America too. But anyway, I mean, it's fascinating. The whole process is just fascinating and humbling.  

Kristin:    00:23:26    It's like an, an organic garden versus commercial farming. Like in commercial farming, we cut up the land and make rows of trees and plants, and then organic forest is just everything mixed together. It makes so much sense,  

Brent & Michael:    00:23:41    Actually. Right. It's so much stronger. It's so much stronger. At the same time, though, the, the commercialized farming, there was an advantage to that. And that, you know, you produce more food. Yeah. It's, it's like everything, it's, everything is constantly in, in flux. And there's a healthy tension between all these different forces in the world. And I mean, you know, traveling, I think when you get outside of your own culture, you see those forces, whereas when you're at home, they remain invisible. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's just such a mind trip. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:24:10    I would love to go back to what you were saying at the beginning about, you know, feeling safe and feeling like you're adapting to this new place. Because another thing that everyone is born with is, you know, what happened before, right? With the imprint on our d n a and we have this sense of instinct and intuition. And so tell us about when you first arrived to Turkey and that you had this kind of sixth sense that something might go wrong with your rental property, and then how that turned out with your, uh, landlord slash tour guide slash modern day philosopher friend.  

Brent & Michael:    00:24:50    We <laugh>, we met this fellow online, and, uh, he said he had a apartment for us, you know, and we could come and look at it, and then we could move in a week later. And so we went, we went out to, um, it's Blu, which is a neighborhood across the golden horn from Fai, which is sort of the seven hills of Istanbul traditional, uh, Constantinople. So we, we went out here and it seemed to go like a great apartment, and he wanted a 50 Euro deposit. And we're like, okay, if we come back in a week, is he gonna be here? Is this just like some, did he rent this room for a day? And he's having all these duping these tourists into giving him $50 advances? You know, there really wasn't anything formal or official. And the landlord was this, you know, 20 year old buddy who didn't speak English.  

Brent & Michael:    00:25:32    And, and we thought, well, you know, it's a cheap apartment. I mean, the thing that's great, you, you, you rent in a, in a foreign country, and, and you can often tell our rent is 600 euro, so $650. And you can often tell from their point of view, they're thinking, oh my God, I can't believe these crazy Americans are paying that much. And we're thinking, oh my God, I can't believe this apartment is so cheap, <laugh>. Which means it's a good deal. But anyway, so we paid the 50 Euros, and then Michael, what happened when we came back, well, we came back over and we were, these are narrow European streets that you're wandering around and everything is not necessarily clearly marked <laugh>. And so we, we got to our apartment building number, and, and lo-- not everything here has got names on it, sort of, you just kinda have to guess if you're at the right place using your Google maps.  

Brent & Michael:    00:26:15    And we're knocking at the door and it's not opening, and we're buzzing the number, and he's not answering. And we're thinking, okay, this is not going to work out very well. So then we message him on WhatsApp and say, Farouk, we're here. What's going on? He says, I'm downstairs, you're not here. We were on the wrong street <laugh>, so all we had to do was walk over, uh, another street. And there he was and took us up and everything was fine. We, we signed a, a little informal lease and, and got signed up. But it's funny, I'm gonna bring this back to you talking about how we've changed over time, because our first year is nomads. Before we left Seattle, we had that entire year planned out. We knew exactly, you know, where we were gonna be that whole year out. And we started off in Miami, and immediately everything fell apart.  

Brent & Michael:    00:27:01    Um, we were in Miami, that worked out fine, but everything after that kind of crumbled and we had to make things up on the fly and, and figured out. And now four years later, we're showing up in, in cities like Istanbul, where we speak none of the language and don't know that much. And we got a hotel for a few days to see Fatih, and then we're figuring out where we're gonna stay after that. And that is just not how Brent and Michael were in their first years digital nomads. And now we're just more like, it's gonna work out. We'll find a place we'll deal with whatever situation comes up and it'll, it'll be great. One way or the other. You can't, you know, with a smartphone, it's like you literally can't be lost anymore. And you, you know, if you need a hotel, and yet we were <laugh> Well, yeah, we were, by the way, if anybody is going to Istanbul contact us, we know a guy.  

Brent & Michael:    00:27:44    I mean, <laugh>. Yeah. Farouk has been a great, you know, sort of local tour guide, not tour guide exactly. But he's been a great resource and he's become a good friend. And and that's great too, you know, so now we're getting to know the locals and he's showing us, you know, where to go, where not to go. And you really can't pay for that. You know, it's like you sort of have to enmesh yourself. We were talking about how if we were to write something, so we were a weak in fti, you know, sort of the old Istanbul. And if we were to write about Istanbul after that first week, we would've written about it. We could've written about it, but our perspective would've been so narrow. I think looking back and now having lived here for a month and a half, it's so much wider.  

Brent & Michael:    00:28:21    Of course, live here for a year. We've talked to a lot of, we've had dinner with a lot of expats. We, one fellow has been living here for seven years, a British man. And, and it's like, even they say, well, I'm still just starting to understand the culture, which is the way it should be. You know, it's like, it is infinite. Any culture is rich as Turkish culture is going to be. You can marinate it, it in it forever and still not completely get it, which is awesome. That's, that's what's great about it. That's what, what's great about travel. But you know, I mean, I feel like because we stay in places longer now, we're much more likely to get to know local people than we were three years ago. You know, Kristin, you, you get over the language barrier, you know, you pick up a few words, there's somebody around who can translate.  

Brent & Michael:    00:29:01    I mean, we went out to, after we went to the mall, we went out to ice cream. We took everybody out to ice cream. And it occurred to me after the fact that, you know, Michael and I only speak English, we don't speak Turkish. And the two of the friends only spoke Turkish. They don't speak in English. And Farouk speaks both English and Turkish. And yet we had a conversation, you know, more or less mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's like, you know, you make it work and people are people and everybody's trying, and he's translating. And there was a connection of sorts. It wasn't, you know, obviously we didn't understand each other completely, but you make it work. And it was just awesome that we sort of had that connection for us. That's what, you know, what travel is all about. That's what makes it great. It's really not the tourist destinations, although sometimes those are fun, but it's, that's really not what's interesting about travel to me. It's the dinner parties and the eating out and the sidewalk cafes and the exploration and the happy surprises and the connections that you make with the people. That's what it is.  

Kristin:    00:29:54    Definitely. That serendipity. And you just reminded me of my very first time going overseas to Italy when I was 17. And I have this flashback of sitting in the hall rooms of the hotel with two other girls who were on their senior class trip. So we were, all three of us had just graduated from high school. We were traveling with our parents to Italy. We were on this group tour, and we were sitting in this hallway talking with Italians, other teenagers that we had met during our trip. And I remember sitting in the hallway thinking, how is this happening?  

Brent & Michael:    00:30:31    Oh, isn't that great? How, how  

Kristin:    00:30:33    Are we having this conversation right now? They don't speak English, we don't speak Italian. And yet we've been hanging out with these guys for three days. Like, how are we even communicating? Like, it was blowing my mind.  

Brent & Michael:    00:30:44    Exactly. Oh, and yet you do. I mean, I love it. I just love it. And, and you know, on one hand people are, people, human beings have this, this, you know, all these same desires and hopes and dreams in common. And at the same time, we're so different and the differences are fascinating, and the elements we have in common are fascinating. That's great too. But I don't know, it's like that, are people more alike than they're different? Or are they more different than they're alike? And I will spend the rest of my life trying to answer that question, I guess. Oh yeah.  

Kristin:    00:31:11    It, it's, it's like one of those, uh, puzzles that has no answer. Yeah. Like, there's no solution. It all depends solution, but it's the, it's the process of trying to figure it out. That's so fun. And then how did you meet these expats that you've been hanging out with too?  

Brent & Michael:    00:31:26    Uh, we meet people all kinds of different ways. We, I always, uh, do a lot of, uh, investigative work before we start. And so Facebook groups, frankly, your group is a great way to, uh, connect with people in different places. You know, just pop in and say, Hey guys, I'm coming to Istanbul. Has anybody been here? Do you have any groups you can suggest that we go to social media? We're always meeting people that way through Instagram. People will contact us and say, oh, I saw you. You're gonna be here in in Istanbul. Would you like to get together? We met a British journalist, and I think I read a tweet of his, and then I saw he was in Turkey, and I looked him up and I sent him a message and I said, would you like to get together for coffee? And he said, sure.  

Brent & Michael:    00:32:07    And now we're gonna have dinner with, with him and his partner. So it, it, it, and, and you also know as a digital nomad, once you get plugged into the system Yeah. You kind of know people all over the world through other people. Two good friends of ours, um, who have never met, are now both in Mexico City at the same time. We've spent time with each of them and other places, and now they're in Mexico City. And we're like, you guys have to get together and, you know, hang out with each other. So there are so many different ways of meeting people. It's kind of amazing. And people are so much more open to it. And then you go to like, uh, we met one guy online and he invited us, you know, we got coffee and then he invited us to a dinner party and that were, you know, there were 10 people at that dinner party.

Brent & Michael:    00:32:46    And then we got invited to another dinner party, <laugh>. And it's like, I think people are, I mean, I think this is true in general outside of America, although it's hard, it's hard to know because expats and travelers and locals who are interested in expats and travelers might be a, a separate breed. But I have found it to be so much easier to make friends outside of America. Partly it goes back to the way cities are constructed because mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they are people based, they're pedestrian based, and they're sidewalk cafes, and they're, they're really about encouraging connections. Whereas I think American cities are, are make it, they openly, they're hostile to human connection and they're, they're hostile to interpersonal interactions. Yeah. And I think that's why we have that epidemic of loneliness and depression and anxiety. And everybody screams at each other on social media in America, but they don't actually talk.  

Brent & Michael:    00:33:31    Nobody ever actually talks. Whereas when you have a city, you know, a a grand ancient old city like Istanbul, you have, you have liberal people, I mean really liberal people, and you have really conservative people, and they all have to coexist in the same physical space. Like New York City, they all ride the subway. Yeah. And somehow they, I mean, I don't, again, I don't wanna romanticize the past or even the present because Turkey has a lot of problems. But I do think it is extremely easy to interact with all kinds of different people when you travel, when you travel the way way we do, you know, when you sort of get outta the tourist zones. That's what we found. Yeah. I don't honestly, what, when we were back in America, we thought it was so hard to, to get together with people, and we would often say, is it us? Are we not very likable? We would often say that. And, and then, you know, four years ago when we left, suddenly, you know, everybody, you know, it is like, okay, it wasn't us, it was <laugh>. It was, it was them, not us, it was America. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was that people are so tired from working so much, and, you know, the cities don't encourage it, and it's just not part of the American ethic. You know, it's, we watch our screens in America, we don't like talk to people, and  

Kristin:    00:34:36    There's not a lot of access points. So something that I've realized, uh, just now as I'm talking to you and I'm looking out the window, there's these beautiful, luxurious high-rise buildings next to me and the condos go. Some of them rent for $35,000 a month, and I haven't met, there's probably thousands of people living within a quarter square mile of me. And I haven't met any of them because last night I was walking, I go for a evening walk every night, and I noticed the entrance of a building that I had never even seen before because it was so oc cult like, it, it's so, uh, exclusive that you can't even see the entrance of the building. And then it has the lobby <laugh> with the concierge and everything. And I just thought, I'm surrounded by people, but at no point will I ever get to meet them because they're gonna go down the elevator to the parking garage out of the gated exit and back in or through their concierge, you know, obviously high security area, and I might meet them at the grocery store or something.  

Kristin:    00:35:42    But there's just, when you're commuting to work and you're living in a gated community or a building like that, and the buildings are very spread out because America has more land to build on versus in Europe, everything's so old and, and so, yeah, it, it just happens that you, you lose that serendipity that you get through travel and, and your story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> just reminded me of, you know, connecting with people once you're plugged into the community, but then also outside of the digital nomad community, which is something I'm only been involved in for a couple years, but just yesterday, a guy I met in Serbia, a German filmmaker, he messaged me on Facebook and he's like, Kristin, I just saw one of your YouTube videos and I remember when we met you, you were just starting out and I was just starting to film my travels.  

Kristin:    00:36:32    I hadn't yet edited a video. I hadn't yet published a video. I hadn't yet started a YouTube channel that was in 2017. Hmm. And the way I met him, his name's Hannis, was I was out with people that I had met in Croatia that somehow we found out that we were in Belgrade at the same time. And we went out to an a nightclub, and then we were also with Serbian people. And then we were walking home and, and we went home to our Airbnb or whatever. We were renting and walking over the bridge, I just start talking to these two German guys that were walking over <laugh>, and we just start talking in the middle of the bridge. We end up going out for pizza at like two in the morning. I have a picture of us standing on the sidewalk in Belgrade eating pizza. And then we just became friends. And the next day we went, there you go, walking around downtown. And now we're in touch on social media. One of them lives in Germany, one of them lives in Barcelona. And you know, now we're just friends. And I'm sure at some point we'll cross paths again. And that, that's the thing that I just love so much about traveling, and it never ever gets old.  

Brent & Michael:    00:37:43    My addition to that version, or, or that, that part of travel is this morning I was out. I, I tend to go for a lot of walks in the morning. I take a lot of pictures, and we've got a bakery right next door. That we've been going to with, with some frequency and getting stuff so good. And, and this morning I noticed that they have this kind of cute mural on the wall that I, the outside of the building I'd never noticed before. So I was taking a picture of it, and the owner came out and saw me taking a picture and I'd interacted with, with him before buying stuff. But he saw me taking a picture and, and it led to me taking a series of pictures of the building and of him. And then he said, you know, in his very little English, he's like, would you like some tea?  

Brent & Michael:    00:38:20    And I was like, well, first, my first instinct was to say, well, no, I don't wanna, I don't wanna bother you. And I thought, well, this is ridiculous. He's offered you tea <laugh>, it's very hospitable. Do it. So I sat down and he brought me out tea, and then he insisted on giving me pastries and then using, I, I've picked up like six words, words of Turkish. It's not the easiest language. And he didn't really have any English, but using Google Translate, typing out questions and comments. We had this conversation sitting in front of, of his bakery, and I, I learned some of his story and it's just what you're, you know, what you were saying about back in America. I mean, it's not like Americans unfriendly and you don't make connections. Of course people do. I don't want to, you know, make that sound like what we're saying, but somehow there is something that's easier about it. And, and when you're living in such close contact, and so even though this guy didn't speak to English, and I don't speak Turkish, I had this really cool, wonderful experience getting to know one of our, our local neighbors this morning that this is gonna stick with me for a long time. Oh,  

Kristin:    00:39:16    What was the pastry?  

Brent & Michael:    00:39:18    You know, I asked him the different names and I wish I had done screenshots to capture them, but he gave me, there are these, uh, the one's called this mosaic cake. It's a, it's a Turkish dish that is sort of a dark, heavy, um, cake with nuts in it. But he does a little, uh, it was like a donut hole. His version of it was like a donut hole. And he had a couple of those. And then I had a little piece of coffee cake with a, a chocolate frosting on it. And then I had a savory, little tiny little scone portions here. We love it. They don't do like giant, you know, pieces of, of cake. There were just four little pieces of thing with tea. And it was, and it was perfect.  

Kristin:    00:39:53    Yum. I heard the food is outstanding in Turkey. Can you confirm?  

Brent & Michael:    00:40:00    Well,  

Kristin:    00:40:00    <laugh>,  

Brent & Michael:    00:40:01    I mean, we, we had heard that too. And I mean, I don't think we like Turkish food because it's very much about the gr Well, here in Istanbul, I mean, on the other side of the country, they're much more about the veg, the veggies, the poor part of the country. But here in Istanbul, they're sort of like flaunting their wealth. And so everything is meat based, and we're kind of secret vegetarians. I mean, we eat meat. Well, Brent is, I'm not, I like meat. Yeah. I, I just, it's honestly, you know, they have these great meso plates with little dishes sort of like, um, you know, it's like Ethiopian food on the big huge tray with, you know. Oh  

Kristin:    00:40:32    Yeah, yeah.  

Brent & Michael:    00:40:33    And some of it is good, but you know, there'll be like, some of it'll be, we'll be kind of bland. I mean, we'll get like a mezo plate and it'll be, I mean, I know this is horrifying, and I hope we don't sound like Rube, but we're not, we, we haven't met huge fans of Turkish food. No, I, I was all excited about it, and I don't think we are, we are not Americans in our taste. The best food we've had so far was in Tbilisi, Georgia. Well, maybe not the best. The Thai food was amazing too, but in, in Tbilisi, Georgia, the food was fantastic. I mean, all these different interesting flavors we'd never had before. Um, we love that, frankly, Bansko, Bulgaria, I love the food there. So it's, it's me's so surprise to us that we dislike Turkish food as much as we do.  

Brent & Michael:    00:41:11    Um, there is, unfortunately, unlike, you know, we often say we've got a sort of a, a saying that when you're in Mexico, eat Mexico Mexican food. You know, if you wanna get Chinese food, you're not gonna get Chinese food. But of course, you get to a city the size of Istanbul or a city the size of Mexico City, then finally you are gonna be able to get good Chinese food. And, you know, you, you don't get bored of Mexican food. Exactly. But you'll have a craving for pod Hai or something. Right. You'll have a craving for Indian food. And, you know, Istanbul is, is big enough that you can, you can do. And there's a great place that makes its own pasta. I don't know if that's Turkish food or if it's just, I mean, there's a lot of hybrid type stuff. The hybrid stuff or the PanAsian stuff, pan-European stuff.  

Brent & Michael:    00:41:50    We've liked that more than the strictly, we don't go to the strictly Turkish restaurants anymore. We, we tried like five of them. And one night we were meeting this, this fellow for dinner, and we had a place picked out and he insisted we had to go to this traditional place that was gonna be really good. And it was so disappointing. Well, it's, yeah, it was funny because, you know, I, they have this sort of, in traditional circus restaurant, there's, it's almost like a buffet, and you point to what you want, and there's lots of different options. And I pointed to all the options that didn't have meat. You know, like, I want the aubergine and I want the potato, you know, the stuffed big potato. And then, and I want, I can't remember what the, but literally everything I had had meat inside. It's like the a have meat inside. Oh, the potato have meat inside.  

Kristin:    00:42:30    Like the grape leaves have meat inside and  

Brent & Michael:    00:42:32    Yes, yes. Even the grape, that was one other thing. I got grape leaves, had meat inside, and it's like, okay, easy on the meat. I, I was sick of meat. And I, but it's not just the meat, the spices, the food has been surprisingly bland anyway, we don't want to dump on, on Turkish food. It was just, that has been a surprising disappointment. I hope when you come here, you have a better experience. You can certainly eat well. And we have, we have absolutely eaten. Well,  

Kristin:    00:42:53    When you were saying that, I didn't realize the similarities between Turkish and Ethiopian food and coffee culture. 'cause like Ethiopia has a really intense coffee culture too, where they just drink coffee all day.  

Brent & Michael:    00:43:05    You know, it's interesting. Coffee came to to Turkey, to Istanbul before it came to Europe. And it is, it's like whoever discovered, I don't know enough about the history of coffee, but whoever discovered it, you know, it must have worked its way up through Africa and every culture, it like blew their minds. <laugh>, you know, as it spread up the coast, up the continent, and then up through, because, you know, and then it finally got to Italy and, and France, and it's like, it's kind of awesome to like drink a cup of coffee and like, oh, this is part of the evolution of coffee and how it, it eventually made its way. Anyway, what were you gonna say about that? 

Kristin:    00:43:36    to  Starbucks, to Seattle, where you are from <laugh>, everything comes full circle.  

Brent & Michael:    00:43:42    <laugh>. Yeah. Boy, is that not true? It's, I mean, it's true though in a way. I mean, you know, and, and of course it, Seattle made, made coffee take America by storm, you know, because before Starbucks kind of old enough to remember this, but before Starbucks, it was Folgers and America brought Italian coffee culture to America. Where then of course Starbucks brought, what did I say? America private. Oh, yeah. Starbucks. Yeah. Which then, of course, like every country before it, it sort of blew America's minds getting good coffee for the first time. And now it's, where where are we the other day? We were somewhere in America. We were in like South Dakota or something. And the coffee was good at like a diner. And we've been, I mean, we've been going to the same South Dakota, my family's from South Dakota, and it's like, it's finally reached South Dakota. I mean, Starbucks has so penetrated the market, and it wasn't like a Starbucks restaurant, but it was like, good coffee. <laugh>, you can expect good coffee almost everywhere. Not everywhere, but many places.  

Kristin:    00:44:34    Not watery diner coffee.  

Brent & Michael:    00:44:36    Right. Okay. But it's not as good as Turkish coffee. It's not as good as Turkish coffee. Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:44:39    Okay. Yeah. So what, what have your observations been on this, uh, Turkish coffee culture, and what are the types of places that people can expect to see and experience?  

Brent & Michael:    00:44:49    Boy, you can see everything from little carts on the street where the guy has got a little grinding machine, like a hand grinder and a boiler over wood chips that he's, he's making the coffee. Um, you, he'll do it right there in front of you to all kinds of, of little tiny shops where you go in and sit down and they'll bring you the, the Turkish coffee is very small. It's a tiny little cup, and it's very, it's like espresso, but it's thicker than espresso. Yeah. Thick, because you don't even finish it. You, you drink about half of it. And then what's left on the bottom is this really thick, 

Kristin:    00:45:22     the grinds,  

Brent & Michael:    00:45:22    But they're finer than grinds. It's, I don't know quite how to, it's, it's like a goop. It's like a goop.  

Kristin:    00:45:28    Do they put spices in it? Like car?  

Brent & Michael:    00:45:30    No, there could be, there could be some spice. Well, I, I haven't seen that anywhere. What, what they often do is they will put a cube of sugar along with the, the coffee, and that'll come with the tea too. And a lot of times people will tuck that cube of sugar, you know, into inside their mouth, and then they'll sip it. Yeah, you don't put the sugar in in the, the drink. You put it in your mouth and then you drink it through the sugar cube, which I think is interesting. Yeah, I don't do it. I, I, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I just take my coffee and tea straight and then have my sweetness comes from a pastry, but you do have some Starbucks here. And I discovered a couple of, I was, I really wanted to explore the coffee culture, and it sort of became like a quest of mine.  

Brent & Michael:    00:46:07    And I was trying these different places and I was embarrassed to discover, like, one of 'em turned out to be a British coffee chain that was sort of the British version of Starbucks. And it was like, no, no, I don't want that. I'm trying to, you know, do more authentic. And then I picked another place that turned out to be a Turkish chain, although ironically, it's very much like coworking. And so that's been a really good experience to have a coworking place to go to again. But I keep looking and I find these little tiny places that have, like, I worked up in the a Garrett type, um, spot. The, the buildings here are so old that everything is unique and has its own kind of personality. So true. You, you'll go inside and it will be like a twisty little labyrinth because the building is 300 years old, and over time, walls got knocked down and rebuilt.  

Brent & Michael:    00:46:50    And so it's, you know, an entirely different experience or it'll be very, very narrow. I cla I went into a place the other day, I kid you not, I had to hang onto a robe <laugh> and pull myself up the stairs as I went up there. And the woman, I ordered my coffee and I said, I'll take it with me. And she's like, motioning me. She's like, no, you're not taking your coffee with you. I'm gonna bring it to you because I know how to navigate those stairs. And so I, you know, climbed up there with one hand using the rope, and then she managed, I don't know how she did it without spilling, but she brought the coffee up to me. So everything is different and unique. Well, and the, the place across the street, Michael has been going to this, uh, sort of hybrid, it's just like a whole city block --

Brent & Michael:    00:47:28    Yeah. And it's all these different, it must be six different restaurants and like, one's in the garden, one's on the roof, and one's in the cellar. And there are, they're connected by all these different weird passageways. It's all the same fabulous restaurant. It's, well, yeah. Okay, well there, there are at least three kitchens. But anyway, yeah, it's the same, same menu. But it's fascinating that Michael talked to the owner. This is what Michael does well, <laugh>. Um, and it turns out that you, it was originally an Armenian orphanage, and as the more and more orphans appeared, the, they took over more and more buildings. So that's where it came from. And then now it's this fellow, he was inspired to inspire Turkish youth to travel. He was a Turkish man who had traveled all over the world. So he decorated with all these funky decorations from his travels.  

Brent & Michael:    00:48:09    And then he hires these young people, you know, the mementos are supposed to inspire their love of travel. And then they work and they earn money, which they then use, they go on these trips together, connecting Turkish youth to a, a love of travel and b to people throughout the world. And I mean, it's just awesome. It's so awesome. But the other,

Kristin: oh, that's cool.

Brent & Michael: Michael noticed it's also a tea culture. And we were in the Grand Bazaar the other day, and Michael was noticing how there was, so you've got all the merchants in the Grand Bazaar, which is like the world's first shopping mall, and it's fabulous. It's a little touristy now. It's like everybody's selling, you know, Turkish delight and they're selling the same three things. So <laugh>, but the, but the physical building itself is fabulous. It's so ancient and beautiful. And, and Michael, no, but Michael noticed there is the merchants, and then there's a, a merchant who goes between the merchant with a little carroll of tea, hot tea, and sells hot tea to the different merchants.  

Brent & Michael:    00:49:00    And then they, while they, you know, while they flog their merchandise, they have their little tea. And I mean, it's tea and, and coffee. It's the blood of this, of this city. It just <laugh>, it's the connective tissue because it's my blood too. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess, yeah, they're, they, these, they drink their tea out of these little tiny glass, they look like flower vases. Yeah. And they've always got a little silver spoon with it. And as Brent was saying, I, I actually tracked down the kitchen in the Grand Bazaar. There's a little tiny hole in the wall where this man is furiously making tea and pouring it into the little cups. And then a fellow will come along and pick up the, the silver platter. And there's 4,000 stores in the, in the Grand Bazaar, which I think I like better than Brent did.  

Brent & Michael:    00:49:41    I, I thought it was pretty fascinating and interesting. But he's walking around with probably 18 little things of tea, just visiting each of the little stores. And, you know, people get their tea from him and then they chat for a minute. And there's just this whole network of people and lifeblood that, that's flowing there that you just don't see in, in a, in a corporate type of America, um, or commercial type of America, in an American shopping mall. You, you never see connections being made like that. At least it doesn't feel like it to be Speaking. Speaking of, speaking of shopping in Istanbul, I was not aware what a clothing shopping paradise this is. And so we were in the Grand Bazaar, and of course everybody said, don't buy anything in the Grand Bazaar because it'll be ridiculously expensive. And so it's like Michael needed a belt and Well, how much is that belt? Well, it was 180 Euros, which is about $20, a hundred hundred 80 lira. 180. 180 Lira. Sorry, 180 Turkish Lira.  So  

Kristin:    00:50:30  Okay.  I was like, wow, that's really expensive designer belt.

Brent & Michael:    00:50:31    180 Turkish lara, which, which is about $20 or, or 18 euro. And we're like, okay, we're not gonna buy. So then we, we shopped around outside of the bazaar, and how much is it? It's a hundred lira, you know, which is $11. And so we bought it. Okay. Oh, well that, that's really reasonable for a belt. Are you kidding? You know, and especially, you know, we cut it for Michael and everything. It was a beautiful leather belt. And oh, we got a really good deal. Then we <laugh>, you know, this was like the first week we're in town and then, you know, we took the ferry over to the Asian side. Istanbul is located on the  Bosporus Strait. It's partly in Europe. And it's partly in Asia. So we took the, the subway over to the Asian side, and, and we see belts for 10 Lira, so that's a dollar.  

Brent & Michael:    00:51:09    So it's like the bargains, you know, the further you get from the Grand Bazaar, uh, the cheaper things are, but the amount and the quality and the prices of the clothing, it is extraordinary. It's amazing. I, however, as digital nomads, we buy almost nothing because we don't have room for it. Yes. It's too bad. It's tragic because there's some beautiful stuff, beautiful bargains we should buy and ship at home. And I got, you know, I mean, I guess we don't wanna go too far down into the weeds, but there's medical tourism. Well, there should, there's also such a thing, you know, for privileged wealthy Europeans and Americans. There's also, there could be optical tourism and dental tourism, because I got new glasses and things are so cheap, glasses are so cheaper. You know, one fourth the cost, what I would pay in America, and if you need dental work, it's gonna be one fourth, or one fifth, or one sixth, the cost that you would pay in America. So, you know, come here, get your dental work done, and it's gonna pay the cost of your trip. But anyway, this is a very privileged American thing to be able to observe. 

Kristin:    00:52:05    I love getting all of my medical and dental work done abroad. I try to avoid doing it here as much as possible. And that's something, you know, that's a concern that a lot of people always have. So what are some of the countries that you've gotten medical care in?

I hope you enjoyed the first half of my conversation with Brent and Michael. Make sure to tune in next week where we take a deep dive into the world of medical tourism, the cost of health insurance, and healthcare around the world. We're also talking about slow travel destinations like Romania, the pros and cons of planning your travel versus winging it co-living versus solo travel, and what to do when things go wrong. Safety concerns, especially in the LGBTQIA community, or in my case as a solo traveling single female. And they talk a bit more about what has changed and what they've learned since their first year as digital nomads, and also how they support themselves financially while traveling full time. So tune in next week, and for weekly updates and travel tips, make sure to sign up for my newsletter at travelingwithkristin.com/subscribe.