From Corporate Lawyer to Full-Time Nomad With Kevin Martin of 30 and a Wake Up

Sneak Peek:

Kevin:    00:00:00    Being rich in time is far more valuable than being rich in money. You really understand how valuable time is. I don't care what the amount of money is now at this point, I'm not gonna sell my time.  

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests. 

Kristin Wilson, Host: Hi everyone. Kristin from Traveling with Kristin here and welcome to episode 113 of Badass Digital Nomads podcast. My guest today is Kevin Martin from the YouTube channel 30 and a Wake Up, who served in the military for 20 years before going to law school, becoming a corporate lawyer in New York, burning out and deciding to quit his job to travel the world as a full-time digital nomad. But of course, C-O-V-I-D had other plans. And so instead of going fully nomadic abroad, Kevin went nomadic stateside. And he has spent the last one year or more traveling around the United States in a van and growing his YouTube channel to more than 70,000 subscribers. So if you've ever been curious about Van Life, you're going to love this conversation.  

Kristin:    00:01:24    Kevin is giving us lots of travel tips, lots of van life tips, and also insights into how he was able to retire early, what his passive income streams are, and why he decided to actually immigrate to Thailand on a long-term visa. And if you are thinking of traveling abroad soon or becoming a full-time, expat or digital nomad, you're definitely going to want to look at different travel, medical insurance options or even international health insurance. You can find out the two that I recommend the most from Safety Wing and Remote Health by using the link in this podcast. Show notes are going to TravelingwithKristin.com/health, H-E-A-L-T-H, and you can also watch the video version of this interview with Kevin over at youtube.com/travelingwithKristin.

Podcast Interview:

Kristin: I love your lifestyle. I watch your videos and I'm like, this is the definition of a relaxed person. <laugh> <laugh>. This is Kevin Martin. I aspire to be like that. Um, well, Kevin, Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads. I know we've been internet friends for probably a year or so now, but it's great to see your face and have you here on the show. Welcome.   

Kevin:    00:02:45    Yeah, This is really cool. I've been following you for a long time. Uh, you were one of the people that kind of inspired me to ditch my nine to five and head out on the road, so I kind of feel like I'm coming full circle being on this podcast since I've watched your videos and listened to your podcast for so long. Uh, it's pretty cool to, uh, to be on your, uh, podcast.  

Kristin:    00:03:03    That's amazing. See, I thought that you had already decided this before I launched my podcast.  

Kevin:    00:03:08    Yeah, I definitely found you on the YouTube channel first and then started listening to your podcast later because I think your u your YouTube channel was like 2019-ish, I think is when you started. 

Kristin:    00:03:18    Yeah.  

Kevin:    00:03:19    So that's when I started  --

Kristin:    00:03:19    2018.  

Kevin:    00:03:21    Yeah, so I I must have found you. 'cause 2018 was about the time I was like, uh, I don't want to do this job anymore. I really want to travel. And I started finding all these people like you, Johnny Fd, uh, Beer for Breakfast, uh, Minority Nomad who I listened to your podcast the other day. Uh, people like that.  

Kristin:    00:03:37    Oh Yeah. Yeah. Love Eric. Well, you're an OG then because I think I only had a hundred YouTube subscribers for like the first year. So thank you for, for watching and listening. And I know that you're in Hawaii right now and you have a beach sign in the background. So we're gonna, we're gonna open that loop and we're gonna close it at the end as to how you got into, uh, to Hawaii. But I wanna start with some of your background. First things first, where are you from? Where did you grow up?  

Kevin:    00:04:04    Yeah, so I grew up in the Midwest in a city called St. Louis for the, for your international, uh, audience. Uh, it's right smack dab in the middle of the United States in a state called Missouri. Um, and uh, I was there until I was 19 years old.  

Kristin:    00:04:18    And then why did you decide to go into the military? Because I know you went into the military at 19, so did you not know what you wanted to do <laugh>?   

Kevin:    00:04:27    Yeah, I kind of grew up in like a lower income family. We were pretty poor and this was back in the mid nineties. There wasn't a whole lot of like student loan type of stuff out there. So I joined the military, number one to get out of the Midwest, to get out of of Missouri and see the world, uh, but also to get money for college. It ended up being a 20 year, uh, adventure in the military. Um, but yeah, initially it was to just get out of Missouri and see the world.   

Kristin:    00:04:53    Yeah. So you probably heard on Eric's interview that he dropped out at 10 years in. Yeah. What were you doing in the military for 20 years? What was your role in the military? And uh, a little bird told me that you lived in a small fishing village in Italy around that same time. So take us back. What were you doing during those 20 years and how did you end up living in Italy?  

Kevin:    00:05:16    Yeah, so my story's a little bit different than Eric's 'cause he joined right around 9/11. I joined in 1994, pre nine 11. There's really two different mil. There's really two different experiences I had in the military, pre 9/11 military post 9/11 military. They were black and white, completely, completely different. So in 1994 I joined the military and I got really lucky. My first duty station was here in Hawaii where I'm at now. And even though Hawaii is a state, it's as different culturally as it as it can possibly be from the rest of the United States. So that was pretty awesome. Um, I moved to Hawaii. I lived here for four years. I was actually going to get out of the military and go to University of Hawaii, but this was during the dot-com bubble. The military was having a really hard time keeping people in and they said, Hey look, we wanna keep you in.  

Kevin:    00:06:11    What can we personally do to make you re-list? And I said, well, if you send me to Italy, which at the time they didn't normally send people for, uh, they didn't do like really long moves 'cause it's expensive. So normally they wouldn't move someone from Hawaii to Italy 'cause it costs a ton of money to do that.  And he said, ah, we can't do that. And I was like, okay, well I'm just gonna get out. About a week later, he called me up and said, Hey, I've got orders to a small little ship in Italy. It's on a NATO base on a place called Gaeta, Italy, which, uh, Gaeta is about an hour north of Naples, about an hour and a half south of Broome. And it's a, it was a tiny little fishing village and I was stationed on a ship there. We had more of an ambassadorial role.  

Kevin:    00:06:54    We would just go around the Mediterranean to different countries and host the ambassador, the leader of the country. Um, you know, we went to France, Spain, Israel, Morocco, Algeria, Greece, anywhere you can think of in the Mediterranean. And so I, I did that for two years. Uh, and it was an amazing experience. And you know, one of the things that made me, uh, kind of fall in love with travel, other than living in Hawaii, I got a little homesick for Hawaii. So after my time in Italy, I headed back to Hawaii for another four years. And while I was in Hawaii, that's when 9/11 happened. I know that was a long answer to a short question, but, uh, that's kind of, you know, the first part of my military experience was, was basically <laugh> like living on a cruise ship and living in all these exotic, amazing locations.  

Kristin:    00:07:43    Is that why you like cruises so much now?  

Kevin:    00:07:45    Yeah, so I tell people this all the time. Like there's a, this negative connotation with cruises and it can be kind of a cheesy, goofy experience. But what I personally use cruises for is like relaxing writing, video editing things that take a lot of time where I kind of want immersed in that. And Cruisey is really good for that. Uh, and I usually take like transatlantic cruises, so it's basically getting me somewhere I want to go without flying anyway. And it gives me a lot of time to work on videos, you know, to write articles, things like that. So I highly recommend cruises for trans transatlantic travel. And it's a really cool way to do that.  

Kristin:    00:08:26    Definitely you save money on the airfare, you don't have any jet lag, you sleep like a baby and then you get all of this productivity time. It's like the opposite of air travel because instead of being so tired and jumping over 18 times zones, you just get to adapt every day a little bit to the new time zone. You have all your meals, everything. You don't have to think about anything. And I actually said the exact same thing to my parents before Covid. I was planning on doing a cruise up to Alaska or something to work on my book, but then that didn't happen.   

Kevin:    00:09:01    Yeah.  So I did that Alaska cruise. It's amazing to do for that kind of thing because you can sit out on the deck, you know, put a coat on and like, you're gonna be so inspired to write, you're gonna have all these like huge glacier glaciers around you. And it's like, it's, it's very inspiring For something like writing, it's a very good advice.

Kristin:    00:09:17     You just have to probably do your research first because the internet connection is so bad. So you couldn't, I think we get so used to Googling things that we need to find in that moment. And on a cruise you have to bring printed out papers with you and books, actual books and note cards and things like that. But yeah, I'll get some more of your travel tips at the end as to how you find those cheap cruises. But a couple things I wanna circle back on, uh, with Hawaii, it's so funny that I actually wanted to go to University of Hawaii too. I think probably a lot of people from the US wanna go there because it sounds so exotic. Yeah. But then in, in the US we have, it's so much cheaper to go to a state school. So I ended up going to a Florida school 'cause I could go for free versus going to Hawaii. Um, but then was Italy the first international country went to?

Kevin:    00:10:07    Yeah, Italy was the fir Well, no, that's not true. So on my way to Italy, I actually had 60 days off. I don't know how I, I worked that out, but I was able to get 60 days off in between Hawaii and Italy. So I went to Thailand, a bunch of my buddies in the Navy had spent some time in Thailand. They said, you gotta go. And I was like, well, this is a good opportunity. So that was actually my first international trip. I flew to Thailand, spent a couple weeks there, and then I went to Italy. So Thailand was actually my first international destination on the way to Italy. And then in Italy I just, you know, we port hopped all the time, country to country. It was an amazing space.  

Kristin:    00:10:43    Wow. That is so different to go from Missouri to Hawaii, to Thailand, to Italy, and then just live in the Mediterranean for two years. I mean, those couldn't be any more distinct, I don't think. But it's interesting that you felt homesick for Hawaii because when I moved from Costa Rica to Australia, when I was studying abroad in college, I felt homesick for Costa Rica. Yeah. And then when I was talking to Eric on the podcast, he was feeling homesick for Thailand. So I, I just find it so fascinating how each person kind of finds themselves at home in a place. And then here we are, 20 something years later, 25 years later and you're back in Hawaii. So maybe there's something there for you to do.  

Kevin:    00:11:31    Well, I tell, I tell people all the time, I came of age here. I mean, I got here at 19 years old. So I spent basically 19 to almost 30 years old with a two year break in the middle in Hawaii. So I spent my entire twenties here. So this is where I came of age. I kind of became adult, started paying bills, bought my first car, you know, fell in love with my first, you know, adult woman, <laugh>, you know, so this is where I came of age. So for me, even though I'm from Missouri, this is where I really like, became an adult.  

Kristin:    00:12:00    Yeah.

Kevin: If that makes sense.

Kristin: And, and ha have you been to all of the Hawaiian islands?  

Kevin:    00:12:05    Yeah, all but the one that's like only native Hawaiians, you have to like have a  

Kristin:    00:12:09    Little one.  

Kevin:    00:12:09    Yeah, you have to have like a, I think it's ni migoua or something like that. But you have to have a like Right. A special invitation to get to. But yeah, I've been to all the, uh, inner islands.  

Kristin:    00:12:18    Which one is your favorite? I've only been to Oahu.  

Kevin:    00:12:21   Whew. That's a tough one. So, you know, it depends on what stage of my life I'm in. When I was really into mountain biking, Moloka‘i is amazing for mountain biking, biking, and hiking. Right now I'm more into the beauty of nature. So Lanai would be the island I would go to. That's the garden aisle. It smells amazing there like all the time. It's like more rainforesty and there's flowers everywhere. Um, Maui is just like the romantic place. So if you, you know, have a significant other and you want to, you know, be in a romantic mood, Maui's a great place to go. And the big island is kind of like Texas. It's where all the like cowboys are. The Hawaiian cowboys are huge cattle ranches there. People really don't know that about the big island, but it's kind of like the Texas of Hawaii. So it just depends on what, uh, you know, what stage of life I'm in, which one is my favorite.  

Kristin:    00:13:08    That's a good comparison. And then did you mention Kauai?  

Kevin:    00:13:12    Yeah, the big island. Yeah.  

Kristin:    00:13:13    So it, or no, Kauai. 

Kevin:    00:13:15    Oh,  Kauai. Yeah, Kauai, which is the garden island.  

Kristin:    00:13:17    Um, oh, that's the garden island. Yeah. Right. So, and have, did you learn to surf when you're out there?  

Kevin:    00:13:22    Um, yeah. I was never a really good surfer, but I was a pretty good boogie boarder. Um, I, I was actually really good at boogie boarding. Not so much at surfing, but um, I was a pretty good boogie boarder.  

Kristin:    00:13:33     Nice. I used to actually, I surfed in Hawaii when I was 16. I have not been back since I was 16, but I was surfing in the, uh, US surfing championships over there in Waikiki.

Kevin: That's awesome.

Kristin: And that was one of my first big trips, I would say. It was kind of like going abroad. Yeah. You know, 'cause you're going so far away. Go from Florida to Hawaii. Yeah. But those were just such good times. I remember driving around with my friends and even though I, I lost in the first heat of the competition, the waves were really small and I just didn't get enough waves. But just the experience of feeling so free, driving around the island and just stopping at random beaches, going body surfing, going snorkeling, eating sushi for the first time. Yeah. Eating, uh, Hawaiian shaved ice, like <laugh> just so nice. Now my brother goes out there every summer 'cause he's a surf photographer, so he goes, or no, every winter when there's big waves. But, um, yeah, I have to, I'll hit you up when I go back and get some more hip. So. Okay. So you're in, uh, the military living it up in Italy. Um, at what point did you shift and go to college and then become a lawyer? Was that during that time?   

Kevin:    00:14:51    Yeah, So the entire time I was in the military I was, I was, uh, going to college like a piece at a time. I don't know if you know this about going to college when you're uh, enlisted in the military. Any university that receives any kind of public money. So even if you receive student loan money for student, which is basically every university you have to allow military people to um, basically get credits from one school and another school and you have to accept them. You cannot deny those credits if you receive government funding. So basically I got my undergrad a peace set of time while I was in the military. After I retired I decided to go to law school. It was something I always wanted to do and I didn't have that brick and mortar education experience and I wanted that. So I went to DC, went to Georgetown, and uh, had an amazing experience. It was everything that I thought it would be. Met some awesome people and just people ask me all the time, do I regret doing that? Absolutely not. It was an amazing experience.  

Kristin:    00:15:49    Yeah. Quintessential law school experience there.

Kevin: It was really cool.

Kristin: So when was, when was your law career then? From what year to what year?  

Kevin:    00:15:57    So from 2000 and basically 2017. 'cause my last year of law school, I was temporarily admitted into the DC bar and I was a juvenile defense lawyer until 2019. So I only did it for two years. I was a corporate lawyer also in DC or in, uh, New York. Um, at a big law firm there representing pharmaceutical <laugh>, the pharmaceutical industry <laugh>, which, uh, so you can you probably understand why I got, so I got burnt out really quick with that <laugh>.

Kristin:    00:16:24    Yeah, I'm glad that you said that because my dad is a lawyer. My sister's a lawyer. I lived with a corporate lawyer who graduated from Duke and then I ended up helping him and his wife move to London for a year. Because they wanted to live abroad. So I helped them through my relocation company. But then ironically they didn't really have a good experience once they got there because they were still working for their DC law firm. Yeah. So they were ahead in the time zone, but then they had to work late because they had clients in the US including the west coast. Yeah. So they were just miserable 'cause they were working like 12 to 16 hours a day. And I think that so many people that go to law school or medical school or any type of grad school where they really have very high sunk costs once they get into the job and they start getting the salary and then they have the student loans, which maybe you didn't have as many 'cause you had the military. Yeah. But then they feel like they're committed like for life. Like they're, they're stuck. And so even if they realize after that first year in the workforce or second year that they don't like their jobs, it's like too painful for them to face that that was the choice that they made. So what advice would you have for people that are in a job that was very high stakes that they feel like they can't get out of that treadmill?  

Kevin:    00:17:52    Yeah, so one of the good things about the legal profession, especially if you go into corporate law, is they pay you a ton of money. Even when you first start off, they pay you an insane amount of money. So my advice to people is take that insane amount of money and if you have debt, I was really fortunate the military paid for law school completely. I would've never taken on the amount of debt that you have to take on to go to law school. It can be upwards of $300,000. Um, I would've never ever, ever done that, especially at the stage of life. I went to law school almost 40 years old. My advice to people is, you're making this insane amount of money. They usually start at about 200,000 a year. And it goes up really, really quickly. My advice to them is get rid of those student loans and just start stockpiling money.  

Kevin:    00:18:37    And it, and you'll, you can get to a point really quick compared to other people, uh, where you can basically live life on your own terms. So if you decide you wanna stay in the legal profession, but you only wanna work part-time, you can figure that out. Or if you decide you want to go out and do something else, like become a YouTuber like I did, uh, you can do that. So when you're in those professions, those high stake professions like lawyer and doctor, the good thing is you make a ton of money so you can basically buy your way out of that. Um, and like investment bankers are the same, uh, people who went, you know, and spent a bunch of money on like a Harvard, India or something. You make, you're making a ton of money. And the key is don't get caught up in that lifestyle that goes along with making all that money.  

Kevin:    00:19:19    'cause what ends up happening is you have this huge student loan payment, but you also see your buddies driving around in a Jaguar living in a $12,000 a month apartment in New York City. And so you, you throw yourself into that lifestyle and then you have to have that huge paycheck in order in order to fund it. So if you don't want that lifestyle, you don't wanna have to work, you know, 80, 90, a hundred hours a week, then, uh, take advantage of that huge paycheck and get out of debt and stockpile some money and go do what you wanna do.  

Kristin:    00:19:49    Yeah, that's a really good point is to not let your cost of living inflate to the point where everyone else does because that happens so fast. It's like, as soon as people get that paycheck, they start upgrading everything. Their house, their car, their furniture, their food. You know, I used to have friends in New York that would spend like thousands of dollars a month just going out to eat. Yeah. Like, that's it. Like brunch, bottles of wine, that kind of thing. And that, like, their monthly cost of living was like 20 grand a month <laugh>. Like that's pretty crazy. 

Kevin:    00:20:25    No, it's crazy. I mean, you can, you can live libido. I mean, you can live libidoloca anywhere. You know, you can get a $10,000 a month condo in, in Bangkok. So, you know, you can live libidoloca anywhere. But yeah, you, you just have to, to keep that spending in check. I mean, that's one of my big things is I tell people all the time, stay outta debt and you can control what you do in your life. Right. Stay outta debt, you know, control your costs and you have complete control of, of your lifestyle and what you know, what kind of life you're gonna.  

Kristin:    00:20:53    And did you start making investments when you were in the military? Or what were some of your first kind of passive income, either rental property or dividend types of investments?

Kevin:    00:21:05    Yeah,  so, so I moved a lot in the military and I would buy, um, I would buy the place that I lived in when I went there. And when I left I would rent it out. And I did that for a couple duty stations. Eventually I sold most of my real estate property. I paid off one property that I still own, uh, which is near my mother. That's why I kept it. Uh, and I rent that out. So I have that passive income source. I have the, the income from that. Um, for those that have been watching my channel for a while, they know that I used to have another YouTube channel about dividend investing. I had to close it when I became a corporate lawyer 'cause there was a lot of conflicts with the companies that I was representing. But I've been a dividend passive investor, uh, almost all my life.  

Kevin:    00:21:47    I, I mentioned that I grew up in a poor family and I never wanted to be in that position. So I've always kind of been a saver an investor. And so I've been doing that for a while. So I have, I, I had rental income, dividend income, and now I have my military retirement income. The great thing about staying in the military for 20 years, a lot of that sounds crazy to a lot of people. But at the end of it, you get 50% of your income for the rest of your life and it starts the day you leave. So, like for me, my, um, that passive income source started at 39 years old. I retired at 39, left the military. And for the rest of my life I'll get, um, very inexpensive healthcare. Uh, and that, uh, pretty sizable. I mean, it, everything's relative.  

Kevin:    00:22:31    I don't mind sharing numbers on here. I make about $3,000 a month in my military retirement, which I could live anywhere that I enjoy living on that. I can live in Hawaii on 3000, uh, 3000 a month in Thailand. I can live like a king in Bankso, Bulgaria. I can live like a king. So, uh, I have that passive income source. And now my YouTube, uh, my YouTube channel generates income. It's not very passive 'cause I have to edit videos. But, uh, there are a couple income sources from my YouTube channel, like this Merino Wool that I'm wearing. That's pretty passive.  

Kristin:    00:23:03    Yeah. Yeah. I found that YouTube is, it's an ebb and a flow <laugh>. Like, it can, it can increase like 10 x in one month and then drop by 20 x and then like it's up and down. So I try not to pay attention too much to the, the ad sense. But, um, it's good to have those affiliate relationships for the products that you really use. Like there's hundreds or thousands of people that have asked me to join their affiliate program and I've only joined a handful of the ones that I actually use. And it's funny that Unbound Merino, I found out about that through Johnny FD and I contacted them and I got a sample. But the, as you said on another podcast, they don't really have a big women's line. Yeah. So I got like one black T-shirt, but then I think I washed it wrong and it shrunk <laugh>. Yeah. So I'm like, I need to start over with that. But I've never been known for being like a light minimalist packer. So I'll have to look into that more. Maybe we can connect offline. You can give me some merino wool tips  

Kevin:    00:24:02    On January of 2022. They're launching a female line. There's been enough backlash from my subscribers are like, why don't they make female clothes? Because they actually got rid of that shirt. No, because that, that you bought, I guess.

Kristin:    00:24:14     the V-neck one.  

Kevin:    00:24:15    Yeah. I guess it wasn't cut very well.   

Kristin:    00:24:17    No, for a woman it wasn't that flattering. It was like too boxy. Yeah.  

Kevin:    00:24:21    So they're trying to, I don't know what it's gonna be like, uh, I can't vouch for the female line, but they're, I mean, they're, um, actively working on it and they expect to launch that in January, uh, 2021.  

Kristin:    00:24:32    That's cool. Yeah. Put me in touch because I mean, that's just an example of a product that I tried out and I didn't love it, so I just never mentioned it to anyone <laugh>. Yeah. But, um, I, I would be happy to test their new line and give them feedback on it. And I would love to just have that as a uniform because I hate picking out what's wear. I would just rather wear the same thing whenever I find something I like, I buy it in like five colors, but it's like white, black, neutral, darker neutral, another black, another white. Like it's just ba like I'm wearing a white shirt. You're wearing a black shirt right now. Like yeah, basics. Cool. So, okay, let's go back to you're in law school or you're, you know, you're working as a lawyer, you're like, okay, this is not all it's cracked up to be.  

Kristin:    00:25:15    You've got this other income coming in. Which by the way, I also considered taking a government job because my dad worked in government and he was getting, I don't know how much, if it was 50% or 80% or a hundred percent of his salary for life. I was like, that's such a great idea. If you can put in your 10 years or 20 years in one of those kinds of jobs and then you have passive income for life versus trying to climb the corporate ladder for 10 or 20 years. Yeah. And then not getting as good of a retirement. So these are all things, pros and cons. People keep those in consideration. But, um, so in these two years that you were working as a lawyer, I know from other podcasts that you started watching YouTube videos again and about travel. How long was it between when you thought, I don't wanna do this, and then actually pulling the trigger to quit your job and go on Remote Year? And it's also baffling to me that I was one of the YouTube channels that you watched then. That's so cool how everything has come back around. But  

Kevin:    00:26:14    Yeah, so, so I was already watching travel videos in law school. I actually, one of my first videos is a trip I took while I was in law school. So I'd really been focused on doing well in law school. Um, 'cause law school is kind of a game. The better you do, the better job you get. Um, and so I was really focused on that. But the last year, once I had all that wrapped up, uh, I had my, my job offer and everything, I, I realized I missed traveling. So I think we had a four day weekend and I jumped on Skyscanner and I saw that Wow air, which doesn't exist anymore, had like a $49 flight to Paris. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go to Paris <laugh> <laugh>. So I hopped on that flight. I actually made I think my first or second vlog, uh, of me going to Paris.  

Kevin:    00:27:00    And uh, yeah, it was a lot of fun. But it reignited that love of travel. It made me remember that in the military I kind of took it for granted because it was just part of my job. I was always traveling and I was always nomadic moving every couple years. And I didn't realize how much I loved being nomadic until I took a breath from law school and realized, man, I'm gonna be living in DC or New York for like the rest of my life. Or, you know, until I'm like 60 something if I, you know, do this law thing for a while. And the idea of that just was like terrifying <laugh>. And so I started watching all these videos and then I found that term digital nomad. I, we, we share a, um, a love of one book called Vagabonding.  

Kristin:    00:27:43    Yeah, I saw that.

Kevin:    00:27:44     I've read Vagabonding a long time ago. I was a huge Jack, uh, Kerouac fan. And um, one of my favorite books of all time is Dharma Bums. And for whatever reason, it's all about va uh, you know, it's all about Vagabonding. It led me to Rolf Pott's, uh, book a while ago. And so I always had that in the back of my mind. So I re-listened to that and, you know, started searching the word nomad vagabonding. And then I found this like digital nomad culture and I'm like, well, what's this about? And so of course then I, you know, found you Johnny FD, I think Chris the freelancer, Brett Dev, all these people mostly in, in Thailand, um, talking about this like digital nomad lifestyle. And so every day I was coming home from work, you know, working my 12, 15 hour days. And when I got home I would just put on these videos. And one day I just said, why don't I do that? Why don't I go travel full-time, share my adventures. I already know how to build a successful YouTube channel. I've done it in the past. Um, I, I know the income potential of YouTube. Um, so why don't I make it my goal to build a YouTube channel about travel that funds my travel? And so in I think February of 2019, I left my job as a corporate lawyer headed out on Remote Year, uh, as you mentioned. And, uh, yeah, I've been traveling since  

Kristin:    00:29:01    <laugh>. Wow. Yeah. You did great with your YouTube channel in a really short amount of time. Can you give people an idea of the salary that you walked away from to do this?  

Kevin:    00:29:11    Yeah. So my salary was over 200K um, as a lawyer, but I was living in New York. So my even chief apartments in New York are gonna be, you know, $3,000 a month. I still had my nomadic streak in me. And so I wasn't, I didn't actually pay for a lease. I would book Airbnbs 'cause I wanted to live in all the different neighborhoods in New York and just kind of experience them. So I lived in Airbnbs the whole time I was a lawyer. I got a PO box so my mail would go there. And um, yeah, I just started bouncing from Airbnb to Airbnb, uh, in, in New York City. What was the question again? I just got sidetracked.   

Kristin:    00:29:47    Oh, it was what it was. What was your, your salary. So you had a $200,000 a year salary and you gave that up to go nomadic and just travel the world making YouTube videos. I love that.  

Kevin:    00:30:01    My worst case scenario was I can live in Thailand, I can live in Vietnam, I can live in my paid off house that I have in Missouri off my military retirement and my, my investment income. Like that was my worst case scenario. And that's was, that sounded better to me than working 12 to 18 hour a day. So I was like, what's the worst that can happen to, I end up living in my little house in Missouri by my mother. And, um, and you know, so that, that's what, you know, I, I have that safety net there. Uh, I'm risk adverse, you know, I'm just, I have a risk adverse personality. So I always do kind of this, um, this risk reward, uh, analysis. And I was like, worst case scenario, I live in my little house or I live in Thailand, you know, um, in Bangkok or Chiang Mai. Uh, and I live pretty well on 3000. So yeah, that's my worst case scenario.

Kristin:    00:30:48     You really can't buy that kind of freedom. So if you're listening to this and you're making 10 or $20,000 a month in a job that you hate and you can't conceive of, you know, taking a risk and living on 3000 a month, I hope that Kevin's story has inspired you because you can live a lot more flexible, happy, low stress lifestyle, making less money, but being able to live on your own terms and wherever you want. And actually just, I think a couple days ago, one of my friends was asking, she, she was offered this really big bonus, I think it was triple her salary, like extra money plus overtime plus time and a half or something like that to work an extra like 12 hour shift at her job every week. So it was like one month, it was only four or five extra days in the month for thousands of dollars.  

Kristin:    00:31:43    And she was like, what should I do? And I just asked her to envision actually what that month would be like if she could just walk herself through getting ready for work. How is she gonna feel at the end of the day? Like how did she feel just thinking about what she was gonna do for that month and then how would she feel if she didn't <laugh>, if she had extra time and if she had less money, but at the end of the month, if she got that paycheck deposited in her bank account, what was it gonna make her feel like? Was she even gonna notice it? Was it gonna change her quality of life? Was it gonna change her happiness? And she's like, yeah, at the end she's like, yeah, I think even just asking you what I should do was a sign that I didn't wanna do it.  

Kristin:    00:32:26    I just wanted, you know, logically I thought I should take money. But she's like, but I'd rather just relax and like have dinner and go to the gym and not have to, you know, be so tired this month and crash my immune system and blah, blah blah. So you gotta keep those things in consideration. And I think the pandemic has really made that even more important, even for me, like just having traveled so much in the past and being used to all of that flexibility this past year made me think of even being more intentional with where I travel. Like not just saying yes, I used to just say yes to everything and everyone like, yeah, I'll meet you here, I'll meet you there. Yeah. And now I'm thinking about, okay, where do I really wanna go? Do I wanna go back to someplace I really love? What is a place that I've really wanted to go to that I haven't been to yet? And just being a lot more conscientious about that. So that's really good, really good advice.  

Kevin:    00:33:24    Yeah. Two points on what you just said. You know, we both, again, you know, really like Rolf Potts and one of the things he mentions in Vagabonding is being rich in time is far more valuable than being rich in money. And especially as you get older, I'm in my mid forties now and you really understand how valuable time is. And I got tired of exchanging my time for money. I don't care what the amount of money is now at this point, I'm not gonna sell my time ever again. <laugh>, uh, for money. I think I, I think a scenario like your friends, I think it's okay to do that if your goal is to take that extra money that you're earning and then buy more time in the future, like be able to give yourself, you know, more freedom because you invested it in dividend, dividend income stocks that are gonna pay you income or you invested it that money into an income property that's gonna provide you, uh, money or you just save that money for two years of travel or whatever it is.  

Kevin:    00:34:26    I think it's okay to bust your butt and trade your time for money if you trade that money for more time, uh, in the future. But yeah, it's you, you really, I think Bill or not Bill Gates, um, Steve Jobs, you know, when he was really sick, basically said like, look, I'm a billionaire and I can't buy more time. I was so, don't focus too much on money. Go out and do something that you enjoy doing. So if you're doing something you don't enjoy doing because of the money, you're probably gonna regret it, uh, towards the end when you run out of time.  

Kristin:    00:34:58    Yeah, I, I completely agree. And I actually think of Steve Jobs quite often, um, because he was a billionaire. I mean, he was one of the most powerful people in the world and he still, like all the money in the world couldn't buy his health back. Yeah. And so I do think about that a lot. And, um, I really try to seize the day, not trying to be cliche, but of course we all have days that we, you know, feel lazy or we aren't being productive or, you know, there's, we have ups and downs with our energy and our mood. But I think overall, if you're just going in the right direction and you're not saying like, okay, I'm gonna sacrifice my life now for some uncertain future payoff. Yeah. It's like, how much is too much? So, you know, for, for Eric it was 10 years in the military and he was done, but for you, maybe you enjoyed it more, maybe you had a better station.  

Kristin:    00:35:51    You were pre 9/11. Yeah. And it made sense for you to wait those 20 years, get vested, get that retirement, and then start your next career. And actually, I, there's this YouTube video I'll link to in the description. It was a lecture in the United Kingdom. Life doesn't start until you're 40. Yeah. And it's this idea of your first life before 40 is usually involved in working really hard and procreating and raising kids. And then your second life once you hit 40 is like what you actually want to do. Yeah. And, and building on everything you've learned in those first 40 years. And I think western society has it all backwards where it's like, oh, you're 40, you're over the hill. It's like, no, this is when you can actually like embrace who you are, what you wanna do, less expenses, hopefully more income at that point.  

Kristin:    00:36:42    Like less kids, less, less distractions, and you can just create more of the life you want with the time that you have left. And um, Bill Gates said in his Netflix documentary that he has more days behind him than he has before him. And Bill Gates being a very polarizing figure, love him or hate him. He's right. I mean, and he is a billionaire and still he can't buy more time. So it's, it's it's important concept. And with Rolf, actually by the time your episode of the podcast comes out, I think the episode right before you interesting synchronicity is a replay of my interview with Rolf Potts. That's awesome. Because it's been two years since that interview and it was like my two year anniversary of Badass Digital Nomads, and that's one of my favorite interviews. So I re-shared it so we'll.   

Kevin:    00:37:32    Yeah, I mean, I can't recommend Vaga, uh, the, his book Vagabonding also, I, I, the audio book is great too. He narrates the audio book and like when you're flying or something like that, um, if you're into like this digital nomad travel culture and you haven't read or listened to Vagabonding like you, you're you're not doing it right. You really need to listen to Vagabonding.

Kristin:    00:37:52    Definitely it's required reading <laugh>. Yeah. Okay. Well let's hop over to your Van Life experience. So after Remote Year, did you have this plan to always live in a van or when did you get that idea?  

Kevin:    00:38:08    So, so I did Remote Year for a year and for tho for those that don't know what Remote Year is, you basically go from country to country over a 12 month period. You live in 12 different countries, you travel with a bunch of digital nomad, uh, type of people. It's really cool. You pay like a set fee every month. And for me it was kind of my way to kind of ease into full-time travel. My program ended March, 2020 in Cape Town, South Africa. So I hopped on a plane March 1st, come to go visit my mother for a month. And then I was actually gonna take a cruise over to Germany. And at your recommendation I was going to Bansko, Bulgaria, I had a, I had a really cool studio apartment. I think it was like $260 for the month rented. I was going to Nomad Fest, I was going to, um, Tbilisi, Georgia, uh, Johnny's, um, nomad, uh,  

Kristin:    00:39:01    Nomad Summit. I was, was doing the same thing. Nomad Fest and Nomad Summit

Kevin:    00:39:05    And then I was going Nomad Summit, Nomad Fest, and then I was doing Nomad Train. So I was gonna, after Bansko, Bulgaria, I was taking the train from Moscow to Mongolia. So I was doing all this like really cool stuff on my own solo traveling. I had it all booked up all the way till October when I was in Langkawi, um, October, 2020 when I was gonna be in Langkawi uh, Malaysia. And I was home visiting my mother for the month of March and Covid hit. And so I'm sitting around going, okay, my channel's just starting to get traction. I think I had 10,000 subscribers. I was just starting to make a little bit of money and now I can't travel. I was like, what am I gonna do? Um, I lived in Missouri, like I said, till I was 19. My family took two vacations at that time. Both of them were RV trips, one was to Colorado, uh, Aspen, Colorado, and the other was to Florida.  

Kevin:    00:39:54    So I had really fond memories of that. And I was already following, um, some Van Lifers, uh, when I was, you know, watching those travel videos at home, uh, when I was watching those travel videos, when I was a lawyer preparing to, uh, to go out on my own. And I said, you know what? Why don't I buy a van and travel the US until this kind of blows up? So at this time, the whole Van Life thing hadn't exploded yet and the prices hadn't inflated. Everyone was kind of like, didn't know what was gonna happen economically. So the RV dealers were actually trying to get rid of them. So I got a pretty good deal, uh, on my RV. And yeah, I set off <laugh> on a one year adventure living in my van. I didn't know how long it was gonna be. It ended up being a year. But yeah, it was, uh, it was pretty awesome experience. I mentioned I'd been in the military for 20 years and I had been out of the, out of the country for most of that time, so I'd never really explored the United States. So, so that's what I did. I set off in the van, I explored the US.  

Kristin:    00:40:50    What are some of the places you went this year?  

Kevin:    00:40:53    So I started off going out west. I was in Colorado, Utah, Arizona, California, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, um, living on BLM land out there. For your audience, I know a lot of your audience is into like, kind of like budget nomad traveling, like living in cheaper locations like Bansko, Bulgaria Chiang Mai, Thailand. Well, in the US there's all this land out west called Bureau of Land Management, land BLM Land and National Forest land that people can camp on for free. Uh, and it's in these beautiful locations like right outside of Yellowstone or right outside of the Grand Canyon or right outside of Lake Powell in Arizona. And so I was staying in all these, uh, I was, you know, bouncing around to all these free, beautiful campsites to camp at. And then, uh, then I headed down to Florida. I did this whole like Florida series. There isn't a whole lot of free camping on the east coast. So I bought this camping pass with this company called Thousand Trails. And I was staying at all their different locations in Florida. Went to like the Everglades, went down to Key West. I'd spent a lot of time in the Keys, uh, in the military. So I was very familiar with with the keys. So I was kinda like coming home for me as well. Um, yeah, I just explore-- 

Kristin:    00:42:06    Beautiful out there.  

Kevin:    00:42:06    Yeah, yeah, just explore the US it was great.  

Kristin:    00:42:09    I really wanna do, uh, van life in, well actually in the US but also in Scotland. I don't know why that's just been on my list for a really long time.   

Kevin:    00:42:19   New Zealand one for me, I wanna do van life. Like I would love to do that.  

Kristin:    00:42:23    I'm such a van Life noob though. But I did find out about that free camp land from your YouTube channel <laugh>, so thank you. Yeah.  

Kevin:    00:42:29    Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's a pretty cool, it's a pretty good deal. I'm not a huge fan of campgrounds. I really like being out in the middle of nowhere, but, um, but on the east coast you don't really ha have that kind of camping out there on the east coast.  

Kristin:    00:42:41    So yeah, I would like to be out in the great outdoors too. But I did see some of your kind of, what was it like, not pros and cons, but things no one talk about about Van Life <laugh>. Yeah. So I'll link to that video and you had one with all of the bugs that were out there where you're like waving around one of those tennis racket things that kills the bugs <laugh>

Kevin:    00:43:02    That was an, an amazing location though. I was on, that's a place called Lake Henry in Idaho. It's this huge giant lake there. Like, I mean it's enormous and it's on BLM land, so you can camp there for free in this gorgeous location on this ridge. I had like the, this the beach to myself there. It was amazing. But yeah, one day, uh, <laugh> I got, there was about a zillion bugs that sworn to me out there swarmed my van  

Kristin:    00:43:30    <laugh>. Yeah, it looked like you were out in the middle of nowhere. But that's, that must be so cool to just have your house with you and just be out in the, in the middle of America. Like, going back to your roots after this whole year of traveling and living in your van, what do you think is like the best setup? And I know it depends on what people are looking for, but when you get like your next van, 'cause we'll talk about why you sold your van, but yeah, what do you think is like the best setup from, from having traveled the country and meeting so many other van lifers and interviewing them for your YouTube channel? Who has the optimal setup?  

Kevin:    00:44:07    Yeah. I think basically having, for me, the most important thing is having an electrical system that functions like an electrical system in a house. So I'm not forced to sacrifice with electricity. Also, I think that's like the number one thing is to have a really good electrical system. The second is to have like the basic creature comforts at home. So like a toilet, a shower, a comfortable bed. And you can do that in a van. You can find vans that have that set up also. Um, some of my subscribers that are listening to this will probably laugh because I'm thinking about going into a, a really, really small, like building out a really small camper in the future. But having a van that you can stand up in makes a world of difference. 'cause when it's raining outside storming, if you gotta stay in your van all day and you can't stand up, uh, it's re it's, it's really bad. So the best thing to do is have a van you can stand up in, have a, a functional bathroom, uh, and a functional, uh, and a, a comfortable bed and a functional kitchen. So that would be like basically the creature comforts of home.  

Kristin:    00:45:08    <laugh>. Yeah. And then did you have any specific workspace built out or did you just work from your kitchen table?  

Kevin:    00:45:16    Yeah, so most vans now come with, uh, front seats that swivel all the way around. So in my van, the seats swiveled and like an airline type of tray would come out. And that's where I would work. And it was, it was pretty cool 'cause I could look out, you know, I could look out the door and see the Grand Canyon or you know, the arches and Moab or whatever and, and do my work, do the, like the um, cliche digital moment type of thing. I hate that term <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:45:41    I know. Um, it's like, it's so cliche, but it's so descriptive of what we do. I just can't get away from it. 

Kevin:    00:45:49    You know  what I don't like about it, here's what I don't like about it, is I, I don't like the word nomad because it's misused. Sometimes I'll talk to people and they'll be like, yeah, he's a digital nomad. I'm like, oh, where's he traveled to? Oh, he is lived in Chiang Mai for the last three years. Like, he's not a nomad. He can work anywhere he wants, but he is not a nomad nomads move. He's not a nomad. So I think it's the nomad part of the phrase digital nomad. Basically anybody who lives in another country gets described as a digital nomad. And I'm like, no, that's not a nomad moves. If they're not moving, they're location independent. They're remote worker, but they're not nomadic.  

Kristin:    00:46:22    Yeah. So exactly. And there's no, I was gonna ask you this at the end of the lightning round of like, what does being a digital nomad mean to you? Because I feel like the definition is so malleable right now. And like I've been nomadic for a long time, but now I'm living in my home country, in my home state. But I'm in a city that I've never lived in before. And it started as just being here for two or three months and now it's been over a year. So I'm like having an identity crisis kind of. But I also know like that I'm okay, I'm location independent and I know that I can travel or go anywhere I want at any time. And just always having that door open. I don't know, I guess I feel like I'm still embodying like the nomadic spirit. 

Kevin:    00:47:08   Yeah.  I think co I mean I, I give a little leeway to people for, you know, for um, because of Covid but I hate when I hear that term and I'm like, oh, where, where do you live? Or, or where have you been? Oh, I haven't really been anywhere. Uh, just Chiang Mai I took a, you know, I took a week trip to Bali and I'm like, dude, you're not a digital nomad. That's like saying if I live in Missouri and I take a week trip to Florida and work <laugh> out of my, uh, vacation rental, that I'm a digital nomad-- 

Kristin:    00:47:35    Yeah. Like people in vans are more, more-

Kevin:    00:47:37    Shouldn't be so negative. But it's the term nomad that that, um, it kind of, uh, annoys me. 'cause I, when I hear nomad I'm like people that moved. But I, I give, you know, obviously because of Covid obviously that's, that's caused a lot of us to not be able to know as much as  

Kristin:    00:47:51    We've seen. Yeah. Like you living in a Van nomadically in the US is way more of a nomad than someone who booked a one-way ticket to Chiang Mai and like never left. That's an expat. And that's what I did at first. I was an expat for eight years living in Costa Rica. Yeah. I was not a nomad. My work was like tied to that location and even though I moved around the country, I still like lived in that country. Um, yeah. So what was your typical day in the life like this year in the van? 

Kevin:    00:48:21    Um, So I usually, I usually stayed in areas for about 14 days. So, so the first day would be basically a travel day. And I would, you know, jump onto a website called Campendium and I would try to find like the next site I'm going to. And then obviously you drive to that site, you get set up and then I would plug into whatever the local nomad RV van life type community that was in that area. So I was a member, or I still am a member of a club called Xscapers. So X--scapers, they're actually under a bigger company called Xscapees. Xscapees is like retirees that travel full-time in their RVs. Like the prototypical thing you think of in your mind of like an RV or like an older couple traveling in this big giant RV. Uh, they have a club called Xscapees and they meet, you know, all over the US where there's a subgroup in there called Xscapers with an X.  

Kevin:    00:49:14    And those are basically digital nomads. It's working age people that live in their RV or van full-time work. Uh, but travel full-time. And, uh, when you become a member of that group, you get access to all these little, all these like Facebook groups. So whenever you go to, uh, an area, you plug into the local Facebook, uh, Facebook group and message group in that area. And I mean, without fail every day there's someone going on a hike, there's someone going to find, you know, explore whatever little town that you're near, uh, to go eat, you know, at whatever local restaurant is there. So that's usually what I'll do. I'll plug into there and I like to hike, so I'll look for, for people hiking. I have a whole video where I go and hike this mountain called, um, called Mount Shavano, which is a 14,000 foot peak. Uh, it's kind of a funny video. She told me it was a five hour hike, which she met was five hours there, five hours back <laugh>. So 10 hour hike. And, uh, so I, I packed like a five hour hike, so I like ran outta water and it was crazy. Um, but  

Kristin:    00:50:18    That happened to me in Nicaragua at Ometepe I thought it was like a four hour hike. It was four to six hours uphill. Yeah. And then back, and I had like one bottle of water and two apples  

Kevin:    00:50:29    Play with me. I, I had nothing to do. I was like five hours on and, um, and coming back's the worst, like coming back,  

Kristin:    00:50:36    I kept falling.  

Kevin:    00:50:37    Yeah. It's--

Kristin:    00:50:38    My legs were like giving out under me.  

Kevin:    00:50:40    Yeah. So that hike I did, you know, someone that, that evening posted, Hey, tomorrow I'm hiking Mount Chano, which is a 14, um, 14,000 foot peak. There's like, there's a bunch of 14,000 foot peaks in Colorado and people try to do all of them. And that's what she was doing. And I said, Hey, I'll go with you. Uh, so I showed up and hike with her. But yeah, that's what a typical day looks like. I usually do some sort of hike, hike to like a, you know, some mountain lake or some trail in Yellowstone, uh, and then, um, you know, come back and edit videos, edit whatever video I made. So, um,  

Kristin:    00:51:14    There's always something to edit.   

Kevin:    00:51:17    It could be, there's always, there's always like, you know, in the life of a nomad, you know, there's this like, glamorized version of it, but it's just like any other life. Like, you do one or two cool things a day, and then the rest of your day is kind of like, you know, doing whatever your work is, you know, watching a little Netflix, things like that.  

Kristin:    00:51:33    Make food. Yeah. What do you eat in the Van <laugh>?  

Kevin:    00:51:37    So, I'm, I'm notorious for not cooking. So for me, in, in van life, I ate a lot of wraps, a lot of solids, a lot of things that, that don't require cooking <laugh>. So that's what I love about being, uh, an international traveler is I always go to places that have food at my fingertips so I can just walk out my door and go to restaurants, you know, places like Thailand, you know, places like that. So for me, that was the only struggle I had in Van Life was  

Kristin:    00:52:02    Food. So when you are on these, um, these campgrounds, like the BLM land for 14 days, and you're, you're not seeing another person. You don't even have trash cans, you're just saving the trash in your van. So you have enough food and water to last for those 14 days before you go back to like real life.  

Kevin:    00:52:22    Yeah. So, so you can be out in the middle of nowhere by yourself, but you can also, there'll also be a lot of places where there's multiple people. Like let's say you go out to Moab and you go out to BLM land on Moab, like right now, this time of year, you're gonna have a ton of people along, along that route. So you, there are gonna be people out there you can connect with the Xscapers group and they'll be like, oh, a bunch of us are camped over here. So you can still keep your distance, but still, you know, go and have a beer, you know, by the campfire at night with that group of people. So you can have that like lonesome, you know, lonely solo experience, but you don't have to, you can plug into different groups and, um, and communities out there. That's normally what I did. I was within a, you know, I was within walking distance of somebody else that I knew. So like we could go and, you know, eat, start a fire, you know, talk about different things.  

Kristin:    00:53:12    Yeah. That's what I love about the nomadic lifestyle in general. Um, when you're moving around a lot is there's always someone new to meet, but you can have that solo introverted experience that I personally crave. Like I could not live on like in a co-living community twenty four seven, three hundred and sixty five days a year. I think my mental health would suffer <laugh>. I could not live on the Nomad Cruise. Like my friend Stella has been on every single nomad cruise, and that's like hundreds of nomads on one boat. I'm like, I can't, or not even nomads, just, you know, like people, I'm like, I could not do that four times a year. Like, I just need a break. So I like the idea of Van Life where you can be by yourself, but then you can connect with these groups so that you don't get lonely or anything. And then, yeah--  

Kevin:    00:54:01    We're the same in that aspect, for sure. Yeah, I'm very much an introvert and I like my alone time. I like to be able to connect into groups when I, when I want to.  

Kristin:    00:54:08    Do you feel like you're missing that, like long-term connection with somebody? Or do you feel totally fulfilled with the way things are? 

Kevin:    00:54:17    Yeah,  so the great thing about, you know, living in the times we live in is you can stay connected with people digitally. So on Remote Year, all of my, all the people I traveled with on Remote Year, we all follow each other on Google Maps, so we know where <laugh> each person is. And as I started traveling in a van, same thing with my Xscaper friends, we would share Google location. So if I opened my map up right now, you'd see all these people scattered throughout the world, uh, and throughout the country on my map. And we stay in touch that way, like with Marco Polo, things like that. So anytime I wanna connect with people, um, I, I feel like it's easy digitally. I know some people they need that like in-person connection, but I like this right here is like, um, our little, you know, conversation right now is enough for an introvert like me, um, to feel connected to people.  

Kevin:    00:55:12    Um, so for me, I don't really need, you know, to be around people to, to feel that connection. So that's, I mean, that, that's why I love technology. I'm able to stay connected with people. I have, you know, being in the military 20 years, then doing Remote Year, then doing the RV thing. I have friends all over the world. When people watch my YouTube video, they'll see me like go to Lake Tahoe and I'm doing what's called mooch docking, which is camping in somebody's driveway. That driveway I'm camping in is one of my Remote Year buddies, Airbnbs. So, you know, I, I connected with him, went out and hang, hung with him in Lake Tahoe. And then about a week later I went to Breckenridge, Colorado and hung out with another one of my Remote Year, Remote Year friends at the Airbnb. They had rent it. So that's how I, I kind of stay connected. And it's the same, I think when I start traveling internationally, um, you know, I'll connect with people. I'm sure if we ever end up in the same location, we'll go out, you know, and have dinner and, you know, so that, that's how I do it. I know it's not, it's not for everybody. I know extroverts really struggle with this lifestyle, but I think it's like, um, really easy for introverts.  

Kristin:    00:56:17    Yeah. I think for extroverts just go to like the nomad hubs, you know, just go to Bansko, go to Bali, go to Lisbon, you like, you'll never run out of meetups and masterminds and like, there's so many things to do. And so to bring things full circle with your lawyer life, it seems like you have a more of a social life living in a van than you did then.

Kevin: Oh yeah.

Kristin: Because if you're working 12 to 14 hours in New York City, your social life probably consisted of maybe going out drinking with work buddies and then crashing. 

Kevin:    00:56:49   Yeah.  I, I tell people all that all the time, like traveling solo, I'm more social than I ever was, you know, working as a lawyer. So Yeah, you're a hundred percent correct. Um, it, it's, and it's expanded my friend network. Um, you know, I meet people from all walks of life from all over the world, you know, traveling like this, whether it's in a van or internationally. So I'm a million times more social, uh, living this lifestyle than I was definitely working as a lawyer for sure.  

Kristin:    00:57:18    Yeah, definitely. I feel that way too. And, and I also remember what it was like before technology and, you know, I don't think I felt, I've done episodes on loneliness on this podcast, and I don't think that I necessarily felt really lonely back then, but I definitely appreciate being able to just FaceTime with somebody or even do these, um, interviews. You know, when we started traveling in the, in the 90s and early 2000s, there was no, you couldn't even bring your cell phone with you. Like it wouldn't work abroad. It was like payphone calling cards. The concept of a podcast didn't exist. Yeah. And so I just, I, I reflect on that all of the time and I'm, I'm really grateful for the technology, but I also just bought a book on Amazon called How to Break Up With Your Phone, <laugh>, because I feel like it's always a, yeah. Like we get, like, the technology can also make us depressed and feel lonely.  

Kevin:    00:58:15    Yeah. So, so I like, I've had that similar struggle as you, and one of the ways that I kept from being lonely was my YouTube audience actually. And I would do live streams, a bunch of my, you know, audience would show up and I just sit there and answer questions. And that helped me not feel lonely. And I felt like I was connecting with them for the time that I wasn't able to connect with them. Right. Because I was doing these live streams. The live streams were more for me to be honest with you, than it was for them. 'cause I'd be out like in the middle of nowhere and it'd be like, you know, eight o'clock at night on Wednesday, and I'd already been out there three or four days and I'm starting to feel lonely. And I'm like, well, let me do a live stream.  

Kevin:    00:58:55    And I felt so much better after doing the, the live stream. And I noticed that the live streams, I started building like more intimate connections with my audience. And I, I kind of like credit that with some of my channel success is that those people started, you know, religiously watching because they had this like, connection with me. Um, but yeah, I mean that's, you know, my advice. Maybe just do a live stream q and a every now and again, and then, you know, if you announce it, then the people that wanna come in there and connect with will be able to jump in there. Yeah. But if, if you go back and look at some of your older videos, I guarantee you you'll find comments from me that you answered <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:59:32    Oh yeah. I recognized your name from my YouTube comments back in like 2018, 2019. And then I think I saw last year your interview with Johnny. Um, and then I listened to that and I'm like, oh, I already know him from like Instagram and YouTube, but I didn't realize that you had a YouTube channel back then. So like I answered your comment, but then I didn't know that you had a Van Life cha, or at that time I think it was probably a travel channel. So then when I listened to your interview with Johnny, then I'm like, oh, okay. And I went back and I started watching your videos <laugh>. So now I, now I watch--  

Kevin:    01:00:09    I, I mean I was doing videos, but it was like, they were terrible. And I think I had like a hundred subscribers so. 

Kristin:    01:00:15    <laugh> and I'm, I'm glad that you gave me that advice on the, on the live stream, because yesterday I scheduled my, I'm doing, I used to do live streams almost every day because of the same reasons I wanted to connect with people. Yeah. And I would be traveling around. So I remember doing a live stream on the Camino de Santiago in 2017 because I was by myself hiking for two or three days and I just felt like I wanted to connect with people. So I did a Facebook Live and I did a Twitch live just in the middle of this Camino. That's awesome. And those are the things that are, I mean, my internet connection was pretty bad, but I love that. And then now I do once a month, like the last Sunday of every month, a live stream on YouTube. So I just scheduled that for, um, this weekend. So that will be exciting. Um, okay. Well let's come back around for why you're in Hawaii. Let's close that loop for the listeners. Um, why did you sell your van and go to Hawaii and what's next on your list for 2021?  

Kevin:    01:01:18    Yeah, so the van I bought really didn't really didn't completely meet my needs. I like, I was kind of famous for like going out in the middle of nowhere. My van was only front wheel drive. Um, it wasn't four by four, so I was getting stuck a lot. Um, I'm actually kind of famous for <laugh> for getting myself stuck. I'm not, but that made me really good at getting unstuck. So then it made me more confident in going places I shouldn't be going. So it didn't really meet my needs. So the RV market right now, and when I sold my van was through the roof. So I was able to sell my van for basically what I paid for after putting 21,000 miles on it. So, um, I decided to sell it. I was also craving international travel and another van company reached out to me and said, Hey, do you wanna take out our van for a month?  

Kevin:    01:02:02    So I was like, okay, this is a great way for me to s uh, segue from Van Life back into international travel. I'll take this van out as it's a really rugged van made by a company called Storyteller. I'll go out to places I couldn't go in my other van and basically have like a blowout with all my van life audience and then transition back into international travel. And I was like, well, where am I gonna go? And I was like, well, I, I really miss Hawaii. I talk about it all the time. So Hawaii's a great jumping off point for getting back into Southeast Asia. So I was like, I'll just go to Hawaii for a couple months. And I decided to get a Thai elite visa. I love Thailand. I spent a ton of time there in the military. Um, I've been going there since 1998 as I mentioned before.  

Kevin:    01:02:46    And like Thailand is the perfect country for me. It's like they have great infrastructure, it's affordable, they have amazing food. It's super, super safe. The people are extremely friendly. But the one negative about Thailand is visas are a pain. I mean they're huge pain. Um, even if you can get, you know, some of the, the better visas, the long-term visas, um, they're still a pain in the butt. And so I decided, you know what, I'm gonna use Thailand as my home base. So I decided to just get the Thai elite visa, uh, for your listeners, you pay a ton of money and basically you have unrestricted access to Thailand for five to 10 years. I have the five year, um, multi-entry visa, but I'm gonna extend it to the 20 year. Um, you just get more benefits with the five year. So I was like, okay, I'll ride the five year out and then they have a way to extend it to 20 years. So that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make it a 20 year visa and I'll be able to basically come and go as I please in Thailand to kind of use it as a base. It's kind of my comfort zone in Southeast Asia. And um, yeah, so that's <laugh>, that's why I'm in Hawaii. 'cause it was a good jumping off point for me to finish my Thailand visa paperwork and get over there.  

Kristin:    01:03:58    And, uh, where are you gonna park your van when you're not using it in Thailand?  

Kevin:    01:04:03    So <laugh> my van. Yeah. So I sold my van and then--  

Kristin:    01:04:06    Oh, I thought you're gonna get another van in Thailand. No? 

Kevin:    01:04:11    No, no, no. You know, I would love to do that.

Kristin:    01:04:12     Oh, you're done with Van life.  

Kevin:    01:04:14    So I, my plan is to do part of the year international traveling part of the year in a van. I'm actually looking at buying another van and building it out myself. So I'm in like active research on that. I've been thinking about something really small, like a micro camper. Uh, they make these like Honda elements that you can turn into campers. And so I've been thinking about doing that. I'm not a hundred percent sure exactly what I'm gonna do. Um, I am doing a little van life in, in Hawaii, by the way. Yeah. But, uh, so, uh, that'll be pretty cool. And I'd love to try Van Life in different countries like Thailand, like in south, like Van Life exists just about everywhere. It exists in Australia, New Zealand, Europe, but it doesn't exist in Asia almost at all. There's a little bit going on in India, but, uh, but almost, it's almost non-existent in Asia.  

Kevin:    01:05:01    So I, I wanna kind of try in Asia, I don't know about, you know, it's super hot, hot and humid. So yeah, it might, that might be the reason. But, uh, yeah, I definitely want to do Van Life in, in Thailand, but what I'm gonna be mostly doing is just traveling internationally. My channel's name is 30 and a Wake Up because I stay in a country for 30 days and then I go to another country. So my plan is to stay in different spots. At first it'll be Thailand, like stay in Bangkok for 30 days, then check Mai, then <inaudible>, places like that.  

Kristin:    01:05:31    Okay, very cool. Um, so when do you arrive in Thailand?  

Kevin:    01:05:36    Mid-July. Okay. So right now my flight arrives there July 15th. I'm not sure how long I'm gonna have to quarantine. Um, I've had the vaccine, they did lower the quarantine down to seven for vaccinated people, but then they had another outbreak. So they ma made it 14 again. I'm hoping by mid-July it'll be backed down to seven, but whatever. I don't care.  

Kristin:    01:05:55    <laugh>. Yeah, I don't mind. See, like you and I, we don't mind, like we'll sit on a cruise ship by ourselves for two weeks. I'm fine quarantining in a hotel for two weeks. I'll just edit videos the whole time. <laugh>.  

Kevin:    01:06:06    Yeah. I just have to make sure I get a hotel with a balcony. Like I've watched a lot of the quarantine videos and I've realized that you want to get a hotel with a balcony, so at least. You know, sit outside, you know, get some air and not be in, you know, a studio for 14 days without, you know.  

Kristin:    01:06:23    Oh, definitely

Kevin: Need some fresh air.

Kristin: You do, you'd go crazy.  

Kevin:    01:06:27    In the, in the, you know, cheaper Thai hotels. They don't open so you can't even open 'em. Even if you wanted to.  

Kristin:    01:06:32    Yeah, you definitely need a balcony. Let's hop into a lightning round, um, before I let you go. Um, what is one resource you can recommend to people who want to learn more about Van Life?  

Kevin:    01:06:45    Um, I would say the best Van Life resource, obviously YouTube for like, trying to figure out the lifestyle. But once you're out there on the road, there's an app called Campendium and a website called Campendium. And that's what you use to find amazing free campsites. Eventually you'll develop a friend network where you'll be able to tap into that network and, and find really cool sites. But Campendium is amazing for finding campsites.  

Kristin:    01:07:15    Okay. We'll add to that in the show notes. And what is one resource? It could be a book or a website or someone that you follow on social media for people who are interested in learning about financial independence or passive income, things like that, investing.  

Kevin:    01:07:31    Yeah, so for me, I always tell people Dave Ramsey, it like changed my life. I found Dave Ramsey in like 2003 and went on the Debt-free journey. I haven't had debt since then. And to me that's the key to like living the lifestyle you want is staying outta debt. So I always recommend Dave Ramsey's book, or the audio book, the auto book's actually really good, uh, called Total Money Makeover. And that basically will give you a solid foundation and then you can kind of branch off into, into other investing based on your interests or how active or passive you'd be. But that book will really give you a good foundation to, um, be in a financial position to live your life, how you want to live. 'cause to me, financial freedom is really about freedom, period. Not, not really about the finance side of it. It's about being free to live the life you wanna live.  

Kristin:    01:08:24    Definitely. I'm so lucky that my parents and grandparents taught me about debt very early, because if they hadn't, I probably would've incurred a lot of it without really realizing before it was too late.  

Kevin:    01:08:38    And that's a dream killer.  

Kristin:    01:08:39    <laugh>. Yeah. So you mentioned, uh, Vagabonding as being one of your favorite travel books. Are there any other books you can recommend that have changed your life or that you've read more than once?  

Kevin:    01:08:50    I mean, Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac. I mean, that's a classic, uh, most people read On the Road by Jack Kerouac.. That's its most famous book. But, uh, I love Dharma Bums 'cause it has more of an international flare than on the Road. I  

Kristin:    01:09:05    Haven't read that one.  

Kevin:    01:09:06    Yeah, I highly recommend Dharma Bums. It's great. Uh, I mean it was written in, you know, the 1950s or something like that. So it's a, it's a little bit dated time-wise, but the characters in the, in the book are great. And Kerouac's such a great travel storyteller. Another book I read when I was younger that, and it's the reason I joined the Navy, is a book called Two Years Before the Mast, by a guy named Dana Henry. He was actually a lawyer in like the 18 hundreds and decided to go on a, a, uh, a seal pelt boat and work on that for two years. Sailing around from the East coast to California hunting seals. It's called two year before the two years before the mast. And it's, it's a great adventure type of travel book, a classic one, so.  

Kristin:    01:09:50    Oh, that sounds amazing. I'm gonna look that up. Yeah, it's really neat. Very cool. And what is your favorite destination that you feel has provided a good context for working remotely? Somewhere where you felt that you could focus, you had good internet, you had good amenities, things to do?  

Kevin:    01:10:10    Oh man. So many places come to mind, obviously. Um, Thailand is a place I always mention because no matter where you are, Chiang Mai, Bangkok, Hua Hin, wherever you are in Thailand, you're gonna have good internet. And there's like tons of things to do. It's really affordable. The food is amazing. Um, you know, there's great restaurants everywhere, you know. So I would always recommend Thailand, especially someone just starting off, um, to ease into it in the, you know, in the hemisphere I'm in now. I would say, um, Colombia, a place like Medellín has great internet and just really awesome vibe there.  

Kristin:    01:10:50    Good tips. Yeah. I remember being so shocked at how fast the internet was in Thailand and just how convenient everything was. So that's definitely a good option. And Medellín also very nice. Um,  

Kevin:    01:11:01    And it was a very cliche, but they're cliche for a reason. 

Kristin:    01:11:04    For a reason. Yeah. And then what about one of your favorite destinations for shutting off? For just disconnecting, relaxing, exploring.  

Kevin:    01:11:14    I love Cusco, Peru. So a lot of people, a lot of people will go to Cusco temporarily to go hike Machu Picchu. That's the city closest to Machu Picchu. But it's an amazing city. Just to hang out at the internet is not great. Although there is a Lina there there now and I heard the Internet's good. So if you need to plug in, but the Internet's not great, but you're at 12 thou, you're at a city that's at 12,000 feet. The air is really fresh, the food is amazing, the culture there is awesome. It's just a really cool place. And it's an old world city. There's not a bunch of high rises. It's very, you know, cobblestones everywhere. Um, it's a really cool place to kind of unplug. Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't say Patagonia. That's another place I love to go. Um, Torre de Tagle, which I say wrong and people will gimme crap about it, <laugh>, but, um, Torre de Tagle down in, uh, down in Chile. And Patagonia is also another amazing place to, to disconnect and just relax.  

Kristin:    01:12:13    That's been on my list for a long time. Um, Patagonia, I do love Peru. Peru very affordable in general, the whole country. Amazing food, very affordable.  

Kevin:    01:12:23    When people ask me that, what's your favorite country question? That's, that's a hard question to answer. Yeah. I can't really answer because it depends on the context. But when people say I can only go to one place, where would you recommend? I always say Peru because Peru number one, people don't realize how big Peru is. If you put it on the US map, it goes from like Minnesota all the way down to New Orleans. It's a huge country and it has something for everybody. You can go hike ancient ruins one day, the next day you can hike a beautiful natural place like Rainbow Mountain. You can be in a metropolitan city like Lima or you can be in an ancient city like Cusco. You can go skiing one day, have world-class surfing the next day and go sandboarding in the desert the next day. It has so many different micro climates . 

Kristin:    01:13:09    And the rainforest.

Kevin:    01:13:11    Yeah. And the rainforest, the food is amazing. So like there's something for everybody there. So that's why I always recommend Peru is a place to go if you can only go to one place.  

Kristin:    01:13:21    Yeah. That's why I try to make it specific. 'cause I know that question is impossible to answer of like your favorite place in the world. Like you said in one video, it's like choosing your favorite kid <laugh>. 

Kevin:    01:13:31   Yeah.  You can't pick one. It depends on my mood.

Kristin:    01:13:31      <laugh>, but it depends on my mood. There's some things that are good for different sorts of context or mood or life phase. And then what is one place that is on your bucket list that you haven't been to yet, but you're looking forward to going to soon?  

Kevin:    01:13:49    Patagonia on the Argentine side. So I've been on the Chilean side, but I've heard such great things about the other side of Patagonia that's in Argentina. So that's on my list. Plus I had all these places I was gonna go. Like I was gonna go to sco. I, I think that's how you say it. Yeah,  

Kristin:    01:14:06    I, I say Bansko but it's like Bansko  

Kevin:    01:14:08    I was so excited to go there. Um, uh, just from your videos, you're like the one that kind of introduced me to place. Um, I was really excited to go there. Um, there's so many places like I could just go on and on and on.  

Kristin:    01:14:20    <laugh> I think you'll really like it there 'cause it has the hiking, low cost of living the social community if you want to partake. There's always people doing stuff like game night, going out to eat, co-working, all that stuff. Um, and it's a great place for 30 days. I think I've spent about six months there so far, but it's good for like 30 to 90 days. You can really feel at home there. And then you are one of the best minimalist travelers that I know. So, <laugh>, what is your favorite, um, carry-on backpack that you recommend to people?  

Kevin:    01:14:55    So people who have watched my channel know I traveled the world with one 30 liter Osprey backpack and I really loved that backpack. But when you're in Asia, even a 30 liter backpack, like if you go in Vietnam air, a lot of times they'll make you check that because the overhead space is small and it's just a little bit too big to fit under the seat in front of you. So I wanted to try to go smaller. So I bought a Nomatic backpack. Um, it's a 20 liter that's expandable to 30 liter, but I've been traveling with it in the 20 liter mode and it fits under the seat in front of me. So now I know that no matter where I go or what airline I use, they're not gonna check my bag. There's nothing in the world. I hate more than checking a bag. <laugh>, I hate it. I absolutely hate checking a bag. Um, so that's why I like also to fly alone. Like even when someone wants to travel with me, I'm like, are you gonna bring, are you gonna check a bag? Like yeah. I'm like, okay, book a separate flight. 

Kristin:    01:15:52    <laugh>.  

Kevin:    01:15:52    I'm not, I'm not like, let's just travel on our own. We'll meet when we get there. 

Kristin:    01:15:57    That's  hilarious.  

Kevin:    01:15:57    Yeah, I really like the Nomatic. It's, it's worked out really well. It's kind of a cliche bag as well, but it's cliche for a reason. It's really well made. I've been really impressed. I don't have any sponsorship deal with them or anything, but uh, I've been really impressed with it so far.  

Kristin:    01:16:10    Nice. And then what microphone are you using? Because I travel with so much camera equipment and stuff. So I know that you said you had a Zoom. Which one do you have?  

Kevin:    01:16:18    Yeah, so I have, I have this Zoom and it's always kind of my backup. And then I have a RODE mic, um,  

Kristin:    01:16:25    Lapier  

Kevin:    01:16:25    Yeah. With a little wind thing also.  

Kristin:    01:16:27    Is that the Zoom6, which offers? Is that? That looks like the new one.   

Kevin:    01:16:31   I have the little video one 'cause I, you know, I travel in 20 liters, so I gotta keep it small. Um, I have that, but I also have the little RODE wireless that I use. Um, I still connect this microphone to my RODE wireless. I don't, you know, connect the wireless part here. It actually works better if you have the lapel mic. Yeah. And so I use that. Uh, I just recently went to only using my phone and GoPros for videos. Actually not recently for the last six months. And it's been so freeing. I used to have this, you know, big camera, big gimbal, you know, and it's just, it's kind of a pain. And again, I travel with, you know, 20 to 30 liters, so took up a lot of space in my bag. So now if it doesn't fit in this little box right here, electronics wise, this little thing right here, it doesn't go with it.

Kristin:  Nice.

Kevin:  So it's gotta fit in this thing. And so I ditched the bigger camera. And to be honest with you, the GoPro9 is awesome. And the iPhone 12, which I have, um, is awesome too. I don't, um, I don't miss my bigger camera at all.  

Kristin:    01:17:32    Yeah. You know, I have, I just got the iPhone 12 Pro Max and I've been using it to film. It's so easy. I also got a new wireless mic for that. But yeah, I still have my other camera with the tripod and all this stuff and I'm like, I don't even, I just use my iPhone from now on. It's the quality is better. Yeah. And it's so easy. You just press record and go. So yeah. Yeah. No fancy gear needed. Awesome.  

Kevin:    01:17:57    Yeah, my video that comes out tomorrow was all shot with a GoPro the first time I've used the max lens. I bought this kind of max lens and I, I, I was having a little issue, some issues with it, but I know that it's gonna be, it's gonna be great once I figure out exactly how to use it. So, um, yeah, tomorrow's video is all GoPro

Kristin:    01:18:18    So <laugh>Cool. Yeah, GoPro's always coming out with some new stuff. Well, thank you so much Kevin for coming on. Where can people follow your journey? Give us all your plugs.  

Kevin:    01:18:29    Yeah, so th I have a website, 30andawakeup.com, but I haven't messed with it in probably a year. Um, my main platform is YouTube. If you, you know, search three zero and a wake up, you'll find me. Um, and if you search Van Life, you'll probably find me as well. Um, also, uh, Instagram @30andawakeup. So, but my primary platform is YouTube.  

Kristin:    01:18:50    All right. Well great. We'll link to all of that in the show notes. So great to meet you face-to-face, and I am looking forward to hanging out with you and Eric and Bangkok on a food tour <laugh>. Um, I'm gonna plan it out for later this year.  

Kevin:    01:19:03    That would be awesome.  

Kristin:    01:19:04    All right. I'm adding it to the calendar. <laugh>. Well, enjoy Hawaii, Kevin, and, uh, talk with you again soon. Thank you everyone. Hope you all enjoyed my conversation with Kevin Martin of 30 and a Wake up and thank you for all of your support over the past two years and 100 plus episodes of Badass Digital Nomads. You can find all of our episodes at badassdigitalnomads.com. You can also check the donate button, where you can Buy me a coffee or join my Patreon crew. There's almost 40 of us now. We're doing a live Zoom hangout once a month. You get previews of all of my YouTube videos before they go public. And you can help keep the podcast ad free and for free. Also, leave a review wherever you listen. Apple, Spotify, Castbox, all of it helps to spread the word about the podcast so that more like-minded people can find it. Thanks for your support and see you next week.