Finding Job Opportunities Abroad as an Expat and Online Dating for Travelers with Fairytrail Founder Taige Zhang

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Sneak Peek: 

Taige:    00:00:30    Our interests are aligned with our users' interests because users want have awesome experiences with someone they like, and we want to give that to them. We can't have fake profiles on our platform because you can't have an awesome experience in real life with a fake profile. It doesn't, it doesn't work.  <laugh>

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin: Today's episode is sponsored by me. Did you know you can now shop my favorite remote work tools, video production equipment, and travel accessories directly from your Amazon account? It's true. Just go to TravelingwithKristin.com/amazon to check out all the products I use and love.  

Kristin:    00:01:39    Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Badass Digital Nomads and Happy Valentine's Day in honor of my least favorite holiday. And to help all of you dating, traveling people around the world, I have brought on the founder of a online dating app, especially for travelers, but also for everyone. The founder's name is Taige Zhang and he is an MBA and world traveler who's lived in five countries, I believe he's lived in cities from London to Berlin to Palo Alto to Shanghai, all while working in tech industries. He's worked in diverse companies such as Consumer electronics, social gaming, FinTech, B2B Ride, hailing services, marketplaces, on demand delivery, and health tech. Today he is the founder of a travel and adventure dating app FairyTrail that connects single travelers on group journeys and activities. His mission is simple to help people explore the world with someone they like Zhang recognizes a universal problem that online dating is a disliked solution to a real human need, and he's out to fix it. So welcome Taige. Am I saying your name right, by the way?  

Podcast Interview:

Taige:    00:03:05    Yeah, you're saying it exactly right.  

Kristin:    00:03:08    Awesome. We'll set the scene here as we usually do. I'm hanging out in Florida and it looks like you are in San Francisco or you're in California.  

Taige:    00:03:18    Yeah, I'm in San Francisco.  

Kristin:    00:03:20    And we met on Medium, right? Is that how we met?  

Taige:    00:03:25    Yeah. So, well, first of all, thanks so much for having me here. Really great to chat with you. So I found your article, I was searching remote to dating because I was like, how do I explain this whole concept? And so I actually just searched for the term remote dating, and I think your article was number one or number two on, on uh, Google.  

Kristin:    00:03:46    Thanks.  

Taige:    00:03:47    Then I was like, Hey, this is a great article. Let's, uh, reach out to the author.  

Kristin:    00:03:52    Well, I'm so glad I wrote that article. It took me forever because I interviewed two people for it, or I think I interviewed maybe four people for that article. And I actually wrote two or three different versions. And there is a follow up that I haven't published yet, but it's called Dating in the Laptop Lifestyle. And it's a topic that I'm very, I feel very strongly about it because I've been in this lifestyle for so long. And as I mentioned in your bio, and as I found in my research online for this interview, dating is a chore no matter what. It always has been. It probably always will be online dating. This is like a whole nother world, and it's, it's actually harder probably for travelers. You know, there's no scientific evidence, but from all like anecdotal evidence, it appears that it's harder for travelers to find, not harder to date and meet people and have hookups, but harder to find long-term meaningful relationships.  

Kristin:    00:04:59    And so that's why I had to write that article, and I'm glad I did 'cause I got a lot of messages about it, especially from women, and we're like, thank you, thank you for writing that. I totally agree. And like, that resonates with me. And so it felt good to, to receive messages because it shows that we're kind of all in this together, but there's gotta be some better solutions than the ones that we have. Now, full disclosure, I have just gone through like a seven month application process to work for Bumble the dating and networking app as their global connector be. And I actually didn't get the job, darn it, but, uh, I'll still be working with them at some point during this year, I believe. So from the time I wrote that article over a year ago to now, I've gotten much more intimately involved in this online dating world. So I'm really interested to talk to you about this and what you're doing differently and to give people another option than just like Tinder and Bumble and some of the bigger sites. It's good to see people innovating in this space. It's much needed. I always say medium's a great place to meet people, so write about what you care about, write about what you know about, and you'll make a lot of friends. And you never know what can happen from there. You, I think it, it could be a good dating platform, right?  

Taige:    00:06:30    Uh, I think anything could be a dating platform from what I've heard,  

Kristin:    00:06:36    <laugh>. That's true. <laugh>, let's start a bit with your background because you have such a diverse background in tech. Your background in a nutshell, what you have experience with since college and how that led to the idea of, uh, creating a dating app.  

Taige:    00:06:58    Yeah, so, um, that's a really high quality question. First of all, <laugh>, I I think I like a lot of us when we go to university, we don't even really know what we want to do. I studied business because I had so much interest in everything. I was like, I can't choose one thing. So I went into business because I knew that would allow me to work in different areas, whether it's fashion or real estate or entertainment or tech. I could do it. So afterwards, I actually started working, um, at Apple in finance. And at Apple I learned about product management and I was really trying to optimize for fun because product managers to me seemed like they were having the most fun. They just looked like they were having a blast at work. And I was like, okay, let's not optimize for money. Let's optimize for fun.  

Taige:    00:07:57    So I transitioned into product in Germany at Rocket Internet where I was able to help build out a lot of interesting, cool startups. And so I've spent most of my career in product at some of the different, I guess, startups or, um, verticals that you mentioned earlier. And I think how I came to, to build a dating app, it, it was really, I guess three things. One, because it's a, it's like a personal topic for me. I've had dating experiences and I've kind of felt, hey, this thing is kind of broken and it doesn't really work. And that kind of, you know, it had a personal, I guess, um, impact on my life. And I was like, Hey, this, I guess personal meaning basically. And then the second reason is I think as a product person, I want to build things that are solving real human problems, not making up some problems, not not being like, Hey, there's this new fancy thing, go buy it.  

Taige:    00:09:03    I'm actually trying to solve things that are really meaningful. And I think having a meaningful, or like a caring, loving relationship is something that people aspire for and people struggle with. So it's a real problem that I feel like I could help with. And then lastly, I think it's because the, the world is changing, so society is changing and people are now working remotely, whereas before, people couldn't work remotely. So if you look throughout history, never before have humans been able to not go to the farm, not go to the factory or not go to the office. They always had to make their livelihood somewhere, uh, sanitary, right? So they had to stay in one place. But now when your work doesn't restrict you to one city, that opens up a whole host of opportunities. The world will change, society will change. And one of the ways in which it'll change is how we will date. And so we're also at this kind of inflection point in terms of where society is going. And so this is a huge opportunity, not just to make a difference, but I think because where we are at this point of time in history, we're onto something really big.  

Kristin:    00:10:20    I'm like completely mesmerized by your answer to that <laugh>. I mean, this is, I I'm so happy to help spread the word a little bit about this because it's something I think about all the time, like that we're living in this really amazing time where, you know, we don't have to marry somebody who lives within a mile radius from our house. Like that's how my grandparents met, you know, and my great grandparents, they only could date the people who lived in their villages and maybe they were working from home, but they were like farming and plucking chickens and Hungary and, you know, immigrating by boat <laugh> to America because of war. Like they were basically war refugees. And now we can live anywhere and we can combine our nomadic roots with technology and with all of these opportunities. And I think that sometimes technology is moving so fast, and the rate of accumulation of information is coming at us from so many different directions that it's hard to just kind of carve out a bubble and be like, whoa, look at what is going on right now. Look at all of the opportunities at our fingertips, and it's easy to get caught up in the news or whatever the drama is of the day, or keeping up with stuff on social media and work. And then just to sit back, really take it in and be like, this is a special time. And a hundred years from now, people are gonna look back at this as a big turning point in society.  

Taige:    00:11:52    Yeah, I think remote work is really going to change the future of society. Like for the first time, if, if you think, you know, you're, you can be anywhere in the world if you have access to internet, you can get a education, you can apply for remote jobs, you can start making income. And so it's, it's really, I, I'm kind of excited for what the future's going to bring. And yeah, I just think it's going to make the world a lot more interconnected and it's going to have a impact on empathy. I think the world is going to be a a lot more empathetic place in the future.  

Kristin:    00:12:27    Completely agree. I I, I see that difference even from, from 17, 18-year-old me before I traveled internationally, my first trip I was 17 on my senior trip, I went to Italy where my grandma's from, and then I went to Mexico with my senior class. And those two experiences changed my life forever. But before my worldview was just so ethnocentric from the US looking out and assuming that everything was the same in other countries. And after it was like, wow.  

Taige:    00:13:04    And it's crazy because it's like, the more you see, the more you're like, wow, there's so, so I have a friend, he, he's the founder of Caviar, and after he sold his company, he's been traveling for I think five years straight. And I thought he would be like jaded by now, but every few days he's sending me stories of his adventures around the world. And he's like, my mind has been blown. I was like, how are you still getting your mind blown five years of traveling straight with pretty much all the money you, you know, you need? And, but it's, it's remarkable. So I think it's so true, like the more, if you have a curious mind and if you feel like the world is a beautiful, magical place, you'll never get bored.  

Kristin:    00:13:53    Totally. And you'll come to this, yeah, you'll come to this kind of understanding and acceptance and of the common thread throughout humanity. It sounds cliche, but I truly do not see the world as an us versus them. And one of the first people I invited on my podcast was a, a Russian guy named Vlad who spoke on the Nomad cruise about the future of society in geopolitics. And we talked about, you know, it sounds like a hippie idea, but we talked about kind of how not very useful borders are <laugh> or, or like how many, okay, they can be useful, but how many problems are current geopolitical situation causes? And it's everybody positioning in game theory, and that's why we have war and conflict. And it's like if we just all realized our common humanity and had that sense of empathy, then it would be just a lot different.  

Kristin:    00:14:58    You know, we wouldn't look at people as outsiders. Mm-Hmm. or someone to be afraid of. I mean, you trace back the history of the United States and there's always just been this racism and prejudice. And before it was like the Italians versus the Irish, then it's black versus white. Now it's Muslims versus Christians. I don't know. There's always some kind of thing where they're setting people against each other and it doesn't have to be like that. And that's what I try to say in, in my travels. And I know that there's a lot of places I haven't been to that either are dangerous or I perceive them as dangerous as a single woman traveling. But to be honest, after going to 60 countries, like I probably would just show up in those countries and realize, well, I already know this, but the people are exactly the same as they are in the, the whole world.  

Kristin:    00:15:49    Like, there are nice people everywhere. There's a few bad apples everywhere. And you know, in some places where there's military conflict, maybe it's different, but like for the most part, you know, people just wanna live in peace and have a good lives, and they wanna eat, they wanna drink, they wanna have find their partner and they wanna have fun, they wanna take care of their kids. Like we all have the same human needs. And yeah, that got off topic, but like, no, I think it is, it is part of <laugh>, it is part of like what we're living in right now. And I wrote that article about the ways the world will change and when everybody works remotely. And I really want people to understand their individual power, that it's not gonna be corporations giving you jobs, it's you being able to acquire the skills you need for any job for free online. It's not like you have to get a hundred thousand dollars in student debt to be or go to an Ivy League school. And all of these huge institutions are kind of going to crumble in a way over time. We might not be alive to see it, but I mean, there's not gonna be a point in taking on student debt and like all the things that we consider normal today to live in the world, it's just gonna be like one global community where education is free and opportunities are there for the taking.  

Taige:    00:17:12    Yeah, and definitely there's so, so many virtues of remote work. For example, I was chatting with a friend from the Philippines, and she actually commutes four hours each day for work. And it's rough because she doesn't live in Manila, she lives in the outskirts. And so it's two hours there and two hours back. But she's thinking of transitioning to working online remotely, which will save her a lot of time and also decrease her safety risks because traveling at night is also kind of dangerous. So yeah, so I'm really excited about kind of where technology is taking us. Obviously we can't slow it down even if we wanted to, but hopefully we can guide it in the right way where we are building for a greater, better world.  

Kristin:    00:18:02    Yeah, you make a really good point. And I think a lot of people in the western world who commute 30 minutes a day or an hour a day or two hours a day, they don't necessarily realize how far people commute, especially in developing countries. And the Philippines, especially in the Manila metropolitan area, it's mind boggling. I mean, when you consider commuting eight hours a day, and it is four, four hours each way, and I've met people who do it because they, they do live outside the city and they have kids.  

Taige:    00:18:38    Yeah. And I was like, wow, it's so hard. And, and they're hard workers. They have a culture of like working hard and being able to put up with it. But I was like, wow, that's really, yeah, it, it, it's not easy. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:18:52    Yeah. And, and I know that my video editor is Filipino, and I mean, I know that I pay him at least twice as much or more than he would get locally and without having to commute. So he gets to work online and make like two or three times more money than he would, I mean, if he worked at home and had to commute somewhere. And especially for people on the other islands, they can't even get to Manila. Yeah. And this goes for like all those, a lot of countries around the world.  

Taige:    00:19:24    And what's happening is, I was in LA the other day and chatting with some folks in line at the car rental and, and she's actually a, so I was like, where do you live? And she was like, I actually live in like a really small town in, in, uh, British Columbia. And I was like, how is it living in a small town? And she said, well, well, I make my money online so I can live in a really small town in a nice community. And I was like, wow, what's going on there? And she said, well, she, so her husband is doing construction, does his work remotely, and then she does some online work, but she actually has her own, uh, yoga studio as well. So they are completely able to live in a small town. And she said in the last, I, I think in a year or two, she's seen a 30% increase in the number of people moving into that small town. So we're also seeing basically people go into smaller towns and to live there, to have that sense of community because they can make their money online instead of being crowded in places like New York or San Francisco where rent is, you know, extremely high and the congestion is really, yeah, it is really horrible.  

Kristin:    00:20:35    Yeah, I, I've been, uh, writing a lot about that too recently because people can make their same salary and just save half of it by living somewhere else. I just had another guy on the podcast, uh, named Mitch, who lives in a van, and he said his cost of living is basically $1,500 a month. Us the rent in Sydney is multiple thousands of dollars per month to live in like a nice condo downtown. And it's like, yeah, you don't have to live in a van necessarily, but if you just lived in a suburb or a small town or a rural area on a farm, but it doesn't matter where you live because you make money online, then that is a game changer. <laugh> like that is like life changing.  

Taige:    00:21:19    Yeah. So things like this are happening where I think still in the early days, I would probably say it's like a 10 year thing. People will, will really get to kind of the middle of it, but we can already see it happening.  

Kristin:    00:21:32    Yeah. And, and so a lot of people say like, to be a digital nomad, you have to be traveling full time all the time living out of a suitcase or a backpack. But I mean, so I'm a digital nomad, but sometimes I have a home base and sometimes I don't. What do you consider yourself like a remote worker or digital nomad, or do you cat categorize it at all? <laugh>?  

Taige:    00:21:55    I don't know. Yeah. I feel like I'm building FairyTrail to, to allow for remote work. And so yeah, I think, I think once we get to a substantial scale, we will be able to work wherever we want.  

Kristin:    00:22:14    Yeah, for sure. I mean that's the, that's the holy grail. But you have worked in a lot of different countries and I found that very interesting about your background because a lot of young people wanna study abroad, and this has been a dream for people ever since study abroad was a thing. And I was able to do it a couple times during college life changing as well, like actually traveling abroad the first time is what motivated me to study abroad. And then, you know, the rest is history. But you worked in Germany, you've worked in all of these different countries. What was your experience like working abroad compared to working back in Palo Alto?  

Taige:    00:22:59    Oh, it's, I don't know if you've ever had this experience where you're living in awe, like every day you have this sense of awe.  

Kristin:    00:23:08    Oh yeah.  

Taige:    00:23:09    And that's incredible because every day here I go to the grocery store, I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna get some stuff. But when you're in a different country, you go to the grocery store and you're like observing the people, you're observing the way they act, you're observing the food. Like in Germany there's this aisle of different types of honey. It, it's just incredible. There must be like over a hundred varieties of honey in Germany. And my favorite is the pine cone honey. It has the essence of pine cones and they basically have the bees get the, I guess the pollen from pine cone flowers. And it's just incredible. You can't find that in, in California, you'll get clover honey or something.  

Kristin:    00:23:49    That's so funny because I've had pine cone honey once and I forget where it was, but I was like, this is the best honey I've ever had and I've never seen it again. I must have been in Europe.  

Taige:    00:24:01    <laugh> go to Berlin, uh, you can get an tica  

Kristin:    00:24:05    In the grocery store.  

Taige:    00:24:06    Yeah, in the grocery store there's a tica and they have like this aisle full of different types of honey. But that's, that's kind of what I love about being in a different country where after work I'll take evening classes for language and meet people from like all around the world. It's just, you know, you go to, yeah, it is just incredible living in other countries and just being immersed in the culture and having friends from different, like from different countries. And like, even dating too, I think dating is that next level. If you date someone from a different culture, you like even have access to kind of their family and you're like, whoa, this is really interesting. Like being part of like this fam well not, you're not like married, so you're like, but you're still like getting access to that family part and you're like, this is incredible how they live and kind of like, yeah. It's just incredible.  

Kristin:    00:24:59    Uh, I actually wanted to ask you how your dating experience has been, so we're gonna get to that in a second. But how, okay, how many places have you worked and how did you get those jobs? Because there are people who want to be digital nomads and travel and work online. And then there's also people who are interested in like an expat lifestyle where they can go live in another country long term for like a year or a few years and not do something like teaching English. I mean, there's certain jobs that you can get that are more widely available, but you've had tech jobs with like multinational companies. How did you get those jobs and how did you get to work in so many different places?  

Taige:    00:25:44    Okay, I, I think everyone has a lot of opportunities. So, so two things. I think the first thing is everyone has a lot of opportunities. It's whether you're saying yes and whether or not you have an open mind to it, because sometimes there'll be this opportunity and if you're closed off to it, you won't see it and it'll just pass you by. So I think that's the first thing. I actually am open to these and when there's a opportunity, I'll say yes. Whereas some people might say no. So I think that's the first thing. And the second thing is people, people are the doors to opportunity. So pretty much every awesome experience, every opportunity, every magical moment has, has come about because of people. So for example, when I, when I transition to work in Germany, I think of as two things. Well, just to simplify, it's one <laugh> because Yeah, I don't, yeah, I'll just make it clear, uh, for everyone.  

Taige:    00:26:42    So I was thinking, how can I get into product management? Because at Apple, if you join in one area, you're generally on this one track. It's not like Google where you can jump around relatively easily. Apple is still a little bit more old school. And so I was on the finance track and I wanted to get into product. So after a bit I figured out I couldn't get into product at Apple, but I did do some volunteer work at a incubator called Seed Camp. And through Seed Camp there was someone who wanted to buy my computer. 'cause I was working at Apple <laugh> and like I had an old Apple computer or something, or he wanted an employee discount or something, I forgot what it was, but I got connected to him. I had lunch with him and he is friends with someone from Rocket Internet.  

Taige:    00:27:26    So during lunch I'm like, I wanna get into product. And he's like, well, rocket is always looking for product managers because they have so many startups you should apply. So that's kind of how I got the intro. I had a video call, I applied, I convinced them I could do product and I, I moved to Germany that, that was kind of how it worked. So, so I have this philosophy, one say yes to things, be open to things and two really people are the doors to opportunity. That's why FairyTrail is actually based on this whole premise of don't figure out where you want to go, figure out who you want to meet and through people, opportunities will present themselves to you.  

Kristin:    00:28:06    That is very compelling. And I think you can also do that these days online. I've heard of so many people getting job opportunities through Reddit and Twitter and stuff like that now. So whether you're in a place where you can meet people face to face and have coffee or lunch or it's online, then yeah, take that chance. I love that you, you wanted to work in product and then you just went for the first opportunity that came up. You didn't doubt yourself like I am not good at product, I don't have those skills yet. You believed in your capacity to acquire the skills that you needed to fulfill the, the responsibilities of the position and you're flexible to be able to take that job. In Germany. When I studied in college, I studied a lot about international relocations and the massive relocation packages that multinationals paid out to executives because it was so complex they had to move the, the both partners together.  

Kristin:    00:29:07    So like the spouse, the kids changing schools, shipping furniture across the ocean, like this is whole ordeal. And now there's a lot of young people who are like, I'm mobile, I have nothing holding me back. I wanna go live in another country and see what happens. And whether it's Switzerland or Germany or Singapore, like, you know, it's gonna be a new experience and it's gonna be awesome. It's gonna have its ups and downs, but at the end of the day you're never gonna regret it. I just noticed we're wearing the same shirt by the way. <laugh>.  

Taige:    00:29:39    <laugh>. That's awesome.  

Kristin:    00:29:40    We're on video. We're wearing a blue white matching white strip shirt each <laugh>  

Taige:    00:29:45    <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:29:46    And so while you were living in, let's stick with Germany then. Did you feel like you integrated with the culture there or how did you, were all of your friends also expats or working from the company or how did you meet locals and then how did you meet your girlfriend who was German?  

Taige:    00:30:05    So I think when I first moved to Germany it was a little bit tricky  

Kristin:    00:30:10    Because you didn't speak German, right?  

Taige:    00:30:12    I didn't speak German. And also I didn't know anyone except people at work. So it really stemmed from work and then through work you start making friends and then what else through Facebook? So asking Facebook friends if they had any friends in Berlin. So that was another thing. Another thing I did, Tinder is good for social socializing as well. It's good for dating but if let's say it doesn't turn out to to be anything, you still generally might be able to make a friend from it. So I think what I relied on is just my work network referrals from Facebook, so friends of friends and then I think, yeah, just Tinder and I also went to some meetups as well. So those were kind of the things I did to um, start, start building a community around me. Start making friends.  

Kristin:    00:31:07    And how did you meet your girlfriend?  

Taige:    00:31:10    Um, so the funny thing is, initially when I first moved to Berlin, it would just be very much just, it, it's like when you move to a new new city, everything you're curious about, everything. So initially it was really just like asking random stupid questions to people on the street, <laugh> and getting lost. And that's kind of how I, you know, initially started dating. But I was in Germany for three years and later on it was more through apps like Tinder.  

Kristin:    00:31:43    Did you ever learn German?  

Taige:    00:31:44    I, I did. I got up to B one, which is like the beginner intermediate level. That's when it gets hard. So I stopped.  

Kristin:    00:31:52    It's a hard language. I was there for I think about a month in Berlin, in Lauer Berg. That's a really funny neighborhood to be a single girl in because everyone's married with kids. So I was like, why does everyone have babies? Like every single person has a stroller. I actually Googled it and I found out that they have the highest birth rate in Europe, so I didn't feel like such a weirdo. I was like, I'm just in a yoga mom area, <laugh>. But um, it's  

Taige:    00:32:21    A nice area.  

Kristin:    00:32:22    Yeah, it's nice. I had a Airbnb there, but I went with the intention of taking German classes, but I was working online so pretty much all I did was sight. See 'cause there's so much to see, so much history, so much culture, so much music, like so much art, museums, so much stuff. So I mostly just did that and then worked and never took any classes. But it's been on my list. So that's cool that you learn German. That's one of the benefits of uh, living in a country for a long period of time, is you really do get integrated in with the culture and you can learn the language and stuff. Did you find any cultural barriers to dating there or any like weird stuff that happened? Um,  

Taige:    00:33:12    I mean, to be, to be honest, I, I feel like every culture is pretty different. Even within the US I would say. There's different cultures in the us you look at people from the south, you look at people from like LA versus San Francisco, we're very different <laugh>. Like people in LA you look at them and you know they're from LA and then people from New York, they are just like most like fast paced people ever. So yeah, like I, I'm very attuned to kind of just noticing the differences in people and actually loving it. So for me, yeah, I noticed the differences but I'm also like really fascinated by them. So I wouldn't say it was a hindrance.  

Kristin:    00:33:55    Uhhuh. That's good. Yeah, I mean I've dated, well I lived in Central America for so long, so I dated a lot of Latin guys and it was easier because I spoke Spanish fluently. But there were some cultural problems there as it doesn't always work the same both ways, right? So being let's say American or US citizen in Germany, if you're, I'm not sure how it is, how the dynamic is between like a American men, German women. I think there's a lot of commonalities there. I've dated some guys in Germany and I actually really liked it. <laugh>, like I feel like I had a lot in common with them and I had a lot in common with like Dutch guys and certain like other European countries. Exactly. But when it comes to like Latin America, western men do really well there, but Western women don't do as well because it can be like a bit of a machista society. I don't know what the word would be in English. Maybe like a little bit chauvinistic, perhaps  

Taige:    00:35:03    Different, that's the word I would use.  

Kristin:    00:35:06    So there's like a class warfare going on crazy 'cause you have like the top 1% that has all the money and then everyone else is poor <laugh>. And then you have interesting the dynamic like the power dynamic between men and women. Although now there are female presidents in like Argentina and Chile and different places. But it could be a bit of a culture clash if I am like an independent American woman dating a local Latin guy, the, yeah, it can be just like a weird dynamic. Um,  

Taige:    00:35:42    So I think Kristin, you've kind of touched on a really interesting point, which is people are different and you who you get along with best might not be just someone local or someone who is from that place, right? Like, 'cause everyone's different and your, I guess counterpart might be of a specific type. For example, what I've noticed is because, so I am, so I'm Chinese and in Chinese culture we value a few things. We value family and that's really important to us. We value food and we value hard work. And also, at least in my family, we really value kind of punctuality keeping your word. So whatever you say you do, you do it. And so what ended up happening was when I was in Europe, I kind of realized I got along really well with Italians and Germans because Italians, they love family, they love food and just, and I was like, wow, this is, we would have dinner parties and it was, I feel at home here I feel like, you know, there's so much overlap in terms of culture and then Germans, they don't care about food at at all <laugh>, but they care about keeping their word and working really hard.  

Taige:    00:36:57    They love work. Germans, it, it's funny, they, they really enjoy working and I really related to that. So I definitely know what you mean when you can feel like you gravitate towards certain types of people and cultures.  

Kristin:    00:37:12    Yeah. And if people, if you're interested, if you're listening or watching and you are just curious about where you might fit in well in the world or where you might have common grounds with people of other countries, of course it's not exact because there's exceptions to every rule, but sometimes you might feel in your own country a little bit of an outsider and that you don't really fit in and then you might travel somewhere else and be like, this is home for me. You can look up on this website, we'll link to it in the show notes, but it's called Hofs Dead's Dimensions, I believe.  

Taige:    00:37:51    That's super fascinating. I didn't know about this. That's super cool. You should share it in our, our group.  

Kristin:    00:37:56    Oh, I will. Yeah. A lot of people, the only reason I know about this is because I majored in international management, so I took international HR classes, we learn the science behind cultural adaptation and I've actually put this curve in some of my talks, but there's so much to it. There's actually a different scientific score that is applied to each country that is scoring things like how collectivist it is, how individualistic all of these different cultural values. And you can actually take the quiz and see how difficult it would would be for you to adapt in any given country. And I think there's one free one and then you have to pay if you wanna do take like a lot of quizzes, but it's quite accurate and it's based on actual scientific data. Yeah. So this is not just something that, yeah, that people are making generalizations or feeling a certain way about, but it's actual real hard data.  

Kristin:    00:38:57    So they use it for all different things, but especially for people who are relocating to another country to help them anticipate some of the hardships that they would have. And they also used it for business communication, you know, before the internet even. Well, it's just as relevant now because people think, oh yeah, everything's the same. We're all connected, but there's different ways people communicate. You know, if a business person from Germany goes to Japan or a person from China goes to Mexico, like there's just different cultures and things. So it's good for that. So, cool. Okay, so we should talk a bit more about dating I guess. But I was curious before we changed topics, why did you leave what I assume was quite a lux, let's say like a cushy compensation package? Because tech companies are known to treat their employees pretty well, at least pay them pretty well. I've had quite a few people, uh, even listening to the podcast who have messaged me on Instagram and other places and said like, I have golden handcuffs. I can't walk away from my job. I make too much money, but I'm bored and I wanna travel, but like, how do I leave this big salary? So how did you leave your international expat salary compensation package to make something on your own and take risk like that?  

Taige:    00:40:26    Hmm, that's an interesting question. So I think this is pretty personal. I think it really depends on your risk tolerance. Some people they are willing to yeah, take a big risk and, and go for it. Some people aren't. So I think this is much more of kind of a, I guess personal values or kind of personal risk tolerance question.  

Kristin:    00:40:49    Yeah. So you just felt like it was worth it. I loved what you said to optimize for fun instead of money.  

Taige:    00:40:58    Yeah. So that was earlier, like when I first started my career, now I'm optimizing for meaningfulness. I am trying to figure out what is meaningful, because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much fun you've had or how much you know, horrendous things you've endured it or how much money you make, it doesn't matter. I think the only thing that matters, at least for me is are you doing what's meaningful? Yeah, I think that is what I'm optimizing for. So even when I build product, I tend to join companies that I think are doing meaningful things and building FairyTrail is very meaningful because you are solving a real human problem and yeah, you're, you're, you're kind of passionate about doing this and it feels like this is something that you should be doing. And when, when you feel that way, it doesn't matter how hard it gets. It's kind of like, yeah, I was just watching some Kobe videos and it, it's just incredible. Like some of the things he's been like telling his daughter about just like having the journey in mind, just thinking about the journey, not the destination. It's really about just the practice in itself. Waking up early, staying late for practice, that's a reward itself, not winning the championships. And that's how I feel about what I'm doing right now. Because even if it sucks, I still love it. Even if it's a struggle, I still love it.  

Kristin:    00:42:29    That's beautiful. I think you hit the nail on the head because there are a lot of people who have kind of checked everything off the life to-do list or bucket list and they're like, okay, did everything, but where's the actual payoff? And the payoff doesn't necessarily come with money. It actually doesn't come with money, it comes with meaning. Yeah. And I like that you have evolved from money to fun to meaningfulness because I think I'm finally in the past few years starting to get to that to where I still value travel a lot, but I know when I'm using travel as a way to procrastinate or have fun rather than doing something that really makes the difference in life and for the life of other people too. And I was saying that on the last podcast, I recorded that I had a really comfortable life and was traveling and worked for myself and worked online and had everything and was not happy <laugh> because I wasn't doing anything that I felt was contributing to my full capacity  

Taige:    00:43:40    To, to yourself kind of actualization. Like when I lived in London or even Berlin, you can go party all the time. Like I literally lived 10 minutes to like the nearest top 10 club in all of Berlin. And it doesn't matter like how much fun you have because at the end of the day you're just gonna be like, okay, I could've and you're always gonna try to beat that level of fun or happiness or whatever, or that level of high. So, and like you look at all these rock stars and these awesome people who have achieved so much incredible things and they might feel lost sometimes because if they're not doing something that gives them meaning, if they're just having fun, sometimes I, I think you might wake up and you just feel lost and empty inside. But if for example, you look, you look at a person who's maybe very poor, but he, he hasn't even achieved that much, right?  

Taige:    00:44:36    Like he might have a very, you know, humble existence, but he might feel meaning like every day he's doing something that he feels meaningful. And for me, I think that is incredible if, you know, you can just feel what you're doing is meaningful and whether it's like just providing a food for your family or you know, doing something good in your community. I think that that is so much more rewarding than temporary highs. And I'm not saying like, don't chase happiness or like don't care about happiness. I just found whenever I chased happiness it would be elusive. And when I just not thinking about it, but rather when I am just being grateful and having great relationships, happiness would just follow me.  

Kristin:    00:45:23    Yeah, it is elusive and I don't know how many times we need to get that lesson or learn that lesson, but yeah, I look at people, the billionaires in the world, the Jeff Bezos of the world, and I'm like, when is enough enough? It's never enough. The biggest yacht, the most cars, the most money, like money that you couldn't spend if you owned like half of the countries in the world. I mean it's crazy. And that's not enough for, for like sustained happiness and like you wrote in in one of your blogs that you don't think the meaning of life is to to be happy and <laugh>. Like I totally get it because like when you ask people what they want, they're like, I just wanna be happy. Like I just wanna be content and like you can be happy in a lot of different situations, but yeah, there has to be still a balance.  

Kristin:    00:46:15    Like if you were happy all the time, it just wouldn't make sense. That would be artificial. But sometimes in life to recognize happiness you have to feel the opposite too. Yeah. Just being in the trenches, the journey is the destination. Like it sounds cliche, but it's so true. And I've had so many of those moments through traveling. One time I saw a woman in an an, she was like an elevator attendant in Japan and this lady was having, I don't wanna say like she was having so much fun, but she, you could tell that she was so dedicated to her craft that it brought her genuine fulfillment to perform her job duty. And I was like, wow, I want what she's having  

Taige:    00:47:01    <laugh>. That's incredible.  

Kristin:    00:47:02    And I've had in, in other jobs, like in real estate, that wasn't very fulfilling to me. I didn't feel like I was creating value in the world. I mean, sometimes 'cause you're helping people find houses, but there were just a lot of problems in that industry that anyone who's ever bought a house probably knows about. I was jealous. I was like, I just wanna be a barista or like, I wanna do something simple, but that like genuinely I wanna serve people <laugh> in a better way. Like, you know, so I I I totally get it.  

Taige:    00:47:35    Yeah, because happiness, it's like, it's fun, but then at a certain point you'll hit like the wall and you'll be like, I I feel empty inside.  

Kristin:    00:47:44    Yeah. And then you have to fill it back up.  

Taige:    00:47:46    Yeah. And then then it's like, so that's why I feel like chasing meaning is so much better and happiness generally tends to just, if you just take care of your relationships and you just have a grateful mindset, I think happiness will be there for you. Don't even worry about it.  

Kristin:    00:48:05    And one of the things I learned, 'cause I just did this 10 day vipasana silent meditation course, is that we spent 10 days basically observing our feelings and our body and being like a equanimous and okay with whatever it was, even if it was painful, even if it was uncomfortable, even if it was bad. And since I've gotten back for a couple weeks, my mom was saying today, I think that meditation thing really helped you <laugh> because you just seem more centered and just roll with the punches kind of thing. I've been working a lot since I got back, but just like doing my daily routine, working out everything. But yeah, she's just like, yeah, you just seem like less reactive. And I'm like, yeah, 'cause I've just been sitting being okay with whatever it is I was thinking or feeling or whatever. And so that's, that's part of it too, is not even having to chase anything but just being like, this is, this is the reality as it is in this moment. My bank account is negative or whatever shit is hitting the fan <laugh> and just being like, this is it. Okay, gonna move forward from here, see what's next.  

Taige:    00:49:14    So was that the first time you did it?  

Kristin:    00:49:17    Yeah. Have you done it?  

Taige:    00:49:19    I have not. Um, curious about your experience. Would you recommend it? How, or did you already have a show about that?  

Kristin:    00:49:28    I actually just recorded it last week, so it hasn't come out yet. And then of course after I recorded it I was like, I don't know if I did that justice. I feel like I need to rerecord it. And I was like, no, that's probably just a neurotic thought in my head. Like,  

Taige:    00:49:42    Okay, I'll listen to that one then  

Kristin:    00:49:44    Yeah, I'll put it out there and then if we need to do a follow up then, then I'll do it and maybe I'll bring somebody from the course cool. To share their experience. So it's not just me. But actually a funny thing, shout out to my roommate at the Vipasana retreat because at the end of the, not a retreat, it's a course, but her name's Tal at the very end. So I was in a room with five girls, we hadn't talked to each other for 11 days, so we like, were living together, but we didn't know each other. So we were introducing ourselves, you know, what's your name, what do you do? And I said, I am excited to record a podcast about this experience, but it's gonna be weird talking about something that was silent. I was like, I don't know, like what's gonna come out verbally because it wasn't a verbal experience. And then someone said, oh, what's your podcast? I'm like, badass. It's called Badass Digital Nomads. And she goes, I listened to that <laugh> <laugh>. I was like, what a stranger listens to it. She's like, yeah, my sister recommended it. That's  

Taige:    00:50:49    Super cool. That's like Instagram status.  

Kristin:    00:50:52    She was in, uh, they're in Canada. So I was like, whoa. What are the odds that like someone who's heard of Badass Digital Nomads podcast is sitting at a silent meditation course in Canada. It's a small world. We were talking about that before this episode. We were like, it's such a tight-knit or  

Taige:    00:51:10    Maybe you're just really big now <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:51:13    No, I don't know. I don't think so enough about me anyway, but like let's, okay, yeah, let's get into the nitty gritty of online dating. I know you're, at least you've accumulated a lot of knowledge about this topic that you can enlighten us with some of the stats. So I took from one of your articles that online dating is the number one way that couples meet in the USA as of 2017 and 39% of new couples meet online first experts predict that this is gonna increase to 70% by 2040. Thoughts?  

Taige:    00:51:50    Uh, yeah, I don't think this is like startling news to anyone because every time I go to a party and say this, people are like, yeah, well that's how I met my wife or whatever. So yeah, it's online dating is now super common. It's the number one way couples meet,  

Kristin:    00:52:06    But there's a lot of flaws with online dating apps, right? I mean, they're not perfect. It's good to have them around. Definitely. Yeah, they're very useful. But what are some of the shortcomings that you see of the major global apps and how is FairyTrail different?  

Taige:    00:52:23    Oh, shoot, I, I can go on and on about this. I, I should really, I don't know, figure out a way to summarize it. So there's I think four, four reasons why they're flawed. I think the first one is there's a limited dating pool and limited variety. For example, if you were to live in New York, people in New York tend to be a certain way. And so if you want someone who's not of that vibe or that style, it might be hard to find in New York. Um, secondarily, 45% of the world's population don't even live in cities. They live in small places that aren't even cities. And the biggest city in Maine is 66,000 people. So that's not very many people. And so you have a very limited dating pool and most dating apps, they don't really, yeah, they don't really address this. Then there's also the part about the dating experience.  

Taige:    00:53:22    First of all, what happens is you actually generally go on like this first date and it's not a really good experience conducive to building a relationship. It's very much like this first date experience that's more like an interview. So again, it's not very fun. And so I, I think there's a lot of issues. There's like the whole efficiency part where like you spend $45 for like a first date and you know, you could have had like a five minute video chat to see if you like the person or not. So yeah, so there's actually quite a lot of issues. So one, it's the number of people and the diversity two is, it's also the experience isn't that great. Uh, they, they just match you and then they're like, okay, whatever. And probably the biggest thing I would say is there's a huge conflict of interest when it comes to dating.  

Taige:    00:54:18    Like, I was chatting with a dating coach and she was saying how it's so strange that dating apps don't help you become a better dater, but then if you are able to find a relationship, you would leave the dating app and they wouldn't be able to make money off of you. So that doesn't make sense for them as a business. So it's almost like this huge conflict of interest for dating apps. They, they want to keep you single and swiping so they can make money and survive as a business. So it's, it's pretty flawed to, to my knowledge, it's, yeah, I think the face Facebook dating is pro probably the only dating app that I think is really amazing in terms of conflict of interest resolution. If you're not using Facebook dating, you're still on Facebook, so they're not, they don't care. Whereas almost every other dating app, their whole business is to give you hope,  

Kristin:    00:55:14    Keep you on the platform. Yeah.  

Taige:    00:55:15    Give you hope that, hey, look at all these beautiful people and you're like, oh my goodness, I could get with this super beautiful person. And then you're like, yes. And then I'm like, and then I'm like, okay, swipe, swipe. I'm not getting that far. Maybe I should upgrade and increase my chances. So it's, yeah, I think there's a lot of issues with online dating.  

Kristin:    00:55:37    Yeah, I mean, I guess in a way dating apps are not much different from other social media platforms. Even Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, the whole goal of any website really, or any app is to keep you using it. Um, I just saw a clip from last week tonight with John Oliver where he was making fun of notifications and how absurd the news notifications are that come into your phone and they're just trying to get you sucked back into the app. And it's like, how do you, like, how is FairyTrail approaching this in a way? Like how are you monetizing differently or how is the way that you meet people different, do you swipe on the FairyTrail app or is it these group trips that you get to go on with people? How are you guys changing the game?  

Taige:    00:56:31    Yeah, so we're changing the game because our intentions are different. So I would say if your intentions are in the right place, you, that can be a competitive advantage because it hurts me so much as a product person when the business interest is misaligned with the user's interests. So users, what do users want? They want to have awesome experiences with someone they like and get on with their lives. They don't want to be swiping all the time. I mean, <laugh>, it, it's pretty frustrating to, to keep swiping all the time and just being like, yeah, being on dating apps. I, I don't think anyone's intention is to spend their whole lives on dating apps. I think people want to live in the real world, have awesome, amazing experiences with someone they like, and that's our mission. We want to give you experiences that are life changing and magical with the person you like.  

Taige:    00:57:26    And our business model is tied to that. We monetize on trips. When you actually go out on a trip, we make money because we make the bookings for you. We take a commission off of that. So it's like Lyft, they make money when you get to your destination. They don't, I think for Lyft, their interests are aligned with their users' interests. Fairy true ex, it's the same. We, our interests are aligned with our users' interests because users want to have awesome experiences with someone they like and we want to give that to them. We can't have fake profiles on our platform because you can't have an awesome experience in real life with a fake profile. It doesn't, it doesn't work. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:58:04    Yeah, it's funny you bring that up because I'll, I won't say which app this was on, but one of my friends was in Dubai. So this is a friend from a different country, not the US who was traveling in Dubai and saw me on the dating app and I was WTFI was inactive actually, I had my profile turned off, so they were feeding my profile. Maybe they matched me with some demographics in the Middle East that's probably in their terms of service, but still <laugh>, like I felt very offended.  

Taige:    00:58:43    Yeah, you, you don't wanna know what's in their terms of service. So actually one of the good things we do is we actually delete your data when you delete your account. So a lot of apps, they actually keep the right to your data so you can, I think Apple might be fighting this now, but if you sign in term if you agree, alright, a lot of times the apps have the right to keep your data that like you, they, they delete your account, you think it's deleted, but's still there and it's completely in their terms of service. It's crazy. Uh, we actually delete your data unless you are reported as like uh, like a fraudster. Scammer, we then we freeze your data for police records and stuff like that.  

Kristin:    00:59:22    Yeah. Let's get into more of the details of how this works because for people who are used to swiping, it's totally different <laugh> from what I can tell. 'cause I've looked at your website and everything and actually put you guys on a episode of Digital Nomad News because Nomad List created a dating platform in their site. And that's something that Peter Levels, the founder has been talking about since at least 2014. That's as long as I followed him on Twitter and he was talking about it back then, and he, I think he started it, it looked just like Tinder and then it, it stopped, it kind of ran out of steam. But there's not very many travel centric dating apps. And so, from my understanding of FairyTrail, so one of the benefits you have that I think might be available in other apps now is that you can do video calling with people immediately or very soon. And then after that, are you video calling with people like in a certain geographical radius or how far away are these people? And then are the trips that you're going on, are they like in the same country? Are they on different continents? Like where are the trips?  

Taige:    01:00:31    So it's completely up to you as the user of how mobile you want to be or how big your dating radius is. So we don't really put any restrictions on that.  

Kristin:    01:00:46    And then if you meet somebody and you talk to them on video chat and you like them, instead of going on a date, you actually meet up on a trip somewhere  

Taige:    01:00:57    Exactly.  

Kristin:    01:00:58    Like you travel together, but you're not like staying together in the same room. You're just on a group trip and you source these trips through, is it Airbnb and Vier?  

Taige:    01:01:08    Airbnb is one of our main providers. We also work with Vier and Tour Radar and get your guide. So these are marketplaces for experiences, and then we just tap into those marketplaces and we buy two seats for you and your match. And they will be led by professional guides that go out every day. That's their job. They're highly rated. We only work with highly rated ones and they're in a group setting. So it's actually safer than being in an Uber when, when you're with one other driver who could just drive somewhere, but you're, but you're, you're in a group of like 10 people. It's, from my point of view, it's, it's actually safer.  

Kristin:    01:01:49    Where are people going? Like what are some examples of the users like trips that they've gone on?  

Taige:    01:01:56    Yeah, so, uh, one girl, uh, she was in New York matched with a guy from Sunnyvale, California. They chatted on video. They had the, their first date over video. And, and to be honest, most first dates from dating apps are more screening dates. You, all you have to do is figure out, okay, does this person look like their photo <laugh>? Does this person seem like a guy I can feel comfortable around? Do we have any convers, can we actually carry on a conversation? Do we have some level of chemistry? Right? That's it. That's all you probably want to get. I mean, that's probably what most people get from a first date. And the second date is when you actually relax, you're more of yourself, maybe you do something fun. So we're, we're basically saying skip that first date in person. Don't spend two hours and like 40 bucks on, on that first date, because you can get most of that from video and then save your time and money and invest it on a awesome experience. Like life is short. Don't just, you know, waste it on boring stuff.  

Kristin:    01:03:04    Yeah. I mean, so how, how many times do you think people are talking or are they talking for like hours, days, weeks, months? Like what's kind of the timeline between like matching with them on the app and then meeting in this foreign land?  

Taige:    01:03:21    So we try to time box it to 30 days for them to figure out if they like each other. Obviously some people after one call, they're like, Hey, let's just go on a trip and figure out if we liked each other because you know, we kind of like each other already, but I'm busy. I don't want to text you forever, let's just go. Some people are like, I don't know, let's talk more. So they'll talk almost every day and then they'll travel. So it really depends. Like this one girl in France, she's been talking to a guy in Sweden for, she told me they've been chatting four hours per day. Haven't done that since like high school. Right? <laugh>. Yeah. So it really depends on the person.  

Kristin:    01:03:59    Wow, that's so interesting too because <laugh>, you could date somebody and you might not even know if they're like the one, or even if you wanna date them for a long time until you travel with them or live with them. Mm-Hmm. So one of the challenges that Digital Nomads and Travelers has have faced is that they're meeting people abroad, but there's a very short timeline between meeting them and then moving in together or something, or deciding if you wanna travel together because the next person's leaving next week. And so I think that this app is a really interesting mix of a lot of different conditions that we find ourselves in because we have the online dating culture and then we have the travel aspect, the chatting and like the FaceTime sort of aspect or the video chat. And it will be really interesting to see how this plays out because I have friends who won't go on a date with a guy that they meet on one of the traditional dating apps unless they do a video call first. Because you can always tell if there's chemistry in those video calls. So yeah, I I I think it's really cool. I'm excited to try it and I like having that 30 day period where it's like, you're not deciding to jump on a plane this weekend and go somewhere and you have a little bit of a buffer and then you get to learn really quickly if you like each other or not. And that probably saves people way more time than dating once every other week for six months in New York or something.  

Taige:    01:05:44    Exactly, because you don't get to know that person. Like for example, yeah, exactly what you're talking about. You might have that and you're like, oh, I guess it's going well, but you, you've never actually had like a prolonged period of time where you were like in super deliberate and intentional, were able to be exposed to various scenarios. So, and also it's a, a trip is a bonding experience. Um, we, we just made a video on FairyTrail, so we have a YouTube channel and we invited a expert on to talk about how trips actually help with forming relationships.  

Kristin:    01:06:21    I would agree with that. I mean, I meet everybody while I'm traveling, so <laugh> And then can you explain a bit more about the group travel aspect? So if you're just traveling by yourself in another country, but you wanna meet people, maybe just like for platonic reasons, how can you join a group through FairyTrail?  

Taige:    01:06:43    Um, so with FairyTrail we had to focus on one use case, which is dating. So we currently don't do friends or couples. We've actually been getting quite a few couples, quite a few, quite quite many <laugh> couples joining. And unfortunately we had to turn them away just because we can't handle that use case. Right now. We do have something called Campfire , which is our Facebook group. And Campfire  is a place where it's not dating focused, it's more of a social community where we encourage people from the FairyTrail community of that mindset of the mindset of being curious about the world, being curious about people and cultures to help each other achieve their goals. For example, you're totally welcome to our Facebook group and you know, welcome to like Promote your business and tell people about it because I think our whole mission on Campfire is really to help people achieve their, whether it's hobbies or business goals by leveraging community. Because my point of view is you can't just build a dating app because a dating app in itself is a horrible business model. And what we're building is a community and our first product is a dating product, but at the end of the day, what we're building is community. And so we invite everyone whether you're in a relationship or not, to be on Campfire.  

Kristin:    01:08:12    Cool. Yeah, I think I joined already.  

Taige:    01:08:16    Okay, cool. So on Campfire , that's kind of a way where people can interact in a more social and non dating way. So if you do want to find someone to travel with, you could post in Campfire FairyTrail for now. We'll still be more for people who are interested in some sort of a relationship, whether it's casual or long term or serious. It, it's really still, we, we do have one use case we wanna address initially, but we will probably expand it in the future.  

Kristin:    01:08:50    Are you allowed to share any data on like how many users you have or which countries they're in?  

Taige:    01:08:57    Yeah, sure. Um, so our biggest user base is in the us. I think it's just because we're located here so it's easier to spread the word organically. We haven't done any ads. It's really all about figuring out if we have something worth talking about. And so that's kind of the reason why we haven't done the whole artificial stuff right now, but we, we might in the next month or two just to see what that's like. In terms of demographics, our biggest age group is 25 to 29 year olds. That's our biggest, um, age segment. And then the next one is nine, no, 18 to 24 year olds. Then it's like 30 to 35. We have 60% women on our app. I'm not sure why, but I think maybe one is because women love traveling and also I, I think the whole safety part is really key component.  

Taige:    01:09:48    Instead of just going and meeting in some like, you know, dingy lounge or bar, you're actually in a safe place video chatting with someone and you know that person isn't just there for a hookup because it's impossible to hook, I guess to hook up through video chat or something. Right? So, so that person is actually investing some time into getting to know you and is more genuine and sincere. So those are my guesses why we have 60% women on our app. It is a little bit troubling. I'm trying to get it to about 50/50 because I, I think if we skew one way too much, we might not be able to find matches for our users.  

Kristin:    01:10:30    Okay guys, you heard it here first and I know that my audience is a majority men at this time, so get on the theory Fairytrail app because there's more women than men on like a, on a, I guess entrepreneurial note. How are you funding this app? Is, are you funding it? Do you have investors?  

Taige:    01:10:52    So we currently don't have any investors and we're not spending very much on it. We're actually all part-time working on this. So we focus on what's most important, which is connecting people. Our value right now isn't the video chat. We actually don't even have video chat built into our app. We ask people to use Messenger or WhatsApp to video chat because that's not our value. What our value really is connecting you to someone amazing you would otherwise never meet. So that's the value we give to our users. And like video chat, like Facebook has billions of dollars and they have a awesome video chat platform. <laugh>, we don't have billions of dollars to make such an amazing video chat platform.  

Kristin:    01:11:35    So you guys have uh, side hustles or is this the side hustle? Like you all have multiple jobs.  

Taige:    01:11:40    This is the side hustle. So we're all part-time working on FairyTrail because we think this has huge potential, but we are still very early. We only have about 2,500 users.  

Kristin:    01:11:53    Okay, that's cool. So are you working in tech right now or,  

Taige:    01:11:57    But the cool thing about our users is if you were to, let's say that, let's say Tinder, they have, I don't know how many users, 57 million users, right? But guess what percentage of 'em are actually relevant to you, like in your city? Very few, but out of all of our users, all of our users, 52% of our users are remote workers. That means they can work from anywhere. That means they might be open to dating you even if you're not in the same city. 42% of our users or or 41% of our users are aspiring to be remote workers. So if you add that together, that's like over 90% of our user base are highly mobile <laugh>  

Kristin:    01:12:41    Like-minded. Yeah. They're-- 

Taige:    01:12:42    They're super mobile. So they can actually be like, Hey, you know what? This relationship is amazing and I actually do wanna have an awesome life experience of living in an amazing city with someone I like. Right? So even though our numbers might not be that big, it's so much more valuable than a big number that's not relevant.  

Kristin:    01:13:03    Hey, it's quality over quantity. And I think anyone who's been on Tinder knows it doesn't matter if there's 57 million people on it. Like yeah, some people get married and find like real connections through Tinder, but just 'cause they have 50 million people doesn't mean that you're gonna find someone that's your other half <laugh>. Yeah. On there--  

Taige:    01:13:24    Unless you work really hard and like upgrade to the pro plan, then you might,  

Kristin:    01:13:29    And also I think Tinder is a bit more of entertainment and kind of addiction than it is real dating because it's really more about the swiping game and then some people are matching with so many people they don't even have time to talk to them or chat with them. And then you've got the passport thing  

Taige:    01:13:45    And it's super superficial. Right. And it's super superficial. It's all based on looks and maybe an occupation and it's just what, like I think we've moved past that. It's been 10 years or so since they launched. I think we deserve something better.  

Kristin:    01:14:01    Totally. We've advanced and like that passport feature of Tinder is basically just people like peeping in, like creeping on other people in different countries that they don't have any intention of going to. And so like that's not fair either <laugh> to those people 'cause they're like, they could be matching with someone who's like thousands of miles away. Yeah. I think this is really interesting because one of the big problems that myself and a lot of remote workers have is that using dating apps while traveling, you end up meeting locals or tourists, you don't necessarily meet other like mobile or remote workers. And so that can be hard because if you're dating a local and you're like, yeah, I'm only here for like a month or three months or something, they're like, well I don't really wanna invest in this relationship 'cause you're probably leaving. And then if it's a tourist you're like, well, I'll probably never see you again.  

Kristin:    01:14:55    And so yeah, it just kind of was like this cycle, this like churn <laugh>, the online dating, like churn and burn. I didn't even really date much in the last year. Like I actually just went on a date recently with a guy who messaged me through Facebook, but I, we had mutual friends, so I thought that I like knew him or something. He just saw one of my YouTube videos and like a year later or a year and a half later we went on a date. And yeah, I was saying this like, I haven't even really been dating a lot. I've just been working. So  

Taige:    01:15:30    That's pretty romantic though. I would say <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:15:34    Yeah. I think subconsciously it, I felt like it was kind of a waste of time at times where I was like, well, I don't, it's like more something to do or entertainment more than like me thinking I'm really gonna meet somebody who's like a good match, but hey, somebody coming in through other internet like channels that's in the same community. Like he works online, he's an entrepreneur, he can live anywhere. Like these are the kinds of - 

Taige:    01:16:03   So you have a future together potentially?  

Kristin:    01:16:06    Uh, yeah, potentially. I don't know. We went on one date. Yeah. But you never know. Like I think that's why the going to digital nomad events and like, I know a lot of people listening to the podcast aren't digital nomads, but like, if you're traveling or even if you're not, like if you work from home and you live in one place and you can't meet people, 'cause a lot of people meet people through coworkers Exactly. And through like friends of friends or mutual friends or whatever. You just have to get out and go to like meetups and networking events and just put yourself out there. And that goes for whether you're traveling or not. Yeah. But it's good to know that FairyTrail exists and that's one more option for people who are either aspiring to have a location, independent lifestyle or already have one. So, and--  

Taige:    01:16:52    And also, uh, just to add to that, where helping people who can't use traditional dating apps. If you live in a small town and everyone around you is like in the fishing industry and like they're 10 years older than you, it is really hard to date. So we actually allow you to, to date remotely. So for, for the 45% of the world that doesn't live in a city with, with not much of a dating pool, we are here to help basically. And these people are open to moving, right? So it, it's like 41% of our users are aspiring to be remote workers. So that means they have the opportunity to, to say, Hey, this is an awesome experience and I want to take a risk. I I wanna have adventure. Right? It's much better than saying it's like it, you were to move in the city blindly versus if you already met someone you really liked, who you know is there for you who can help you get established in a new city, which one would you choose? IIII would choose the one where I'm not moving blindly into a city.  

Kristin:    01:18:00    Yeah. And it also takes away some of the small talk because the people who are on the app, like you already have common ground there, you already know that you're open to moving or something like that and you don't have to weed people out.  

Taige:    01:18:15    Exactly. Right. So it's definitely much more like people who are on this app are self-selecting, so you'll probably find someone who is closer to the type of person you are.  

Kristin:    01:18:28    Yeah. And then you also had a really interesting stat in your research when you were validating the idea, you found that 80% of the people in the Facebook groups that you pulled said that they would date outside of their city and that they were open to dating outside of the place where they lived. I found that very enlightening. Yeah.  

Taige:    01:18:48    Obviously this is measuring intention. It's not saying did you do this? But intention is very strong because you intend to do something a lot of times that that's kind of the first step to doing it. And that's why I actually had to build this to figure out if people would do it because people say they will and they might not. But I, I do think in this case it is true because we also validated in other ways, for example, running ad words for this thing that doesn't exist and saying it costs $350 and people were still clicking through. So <laugh>. So that is also another thing that validates, and obviously when you talk to people and you figure out, hey, how did you guys meet? And they met online and from different cities, when you hear enough stories, you're like, okay, this is happening. There just isn't a product to formalize this, this is happening randomly because of their share will of people wanting to make it happen.  

Kristin:    01:19:42    That's true. People could be on like match or plenty of fish or something and dating across the country or across the world and then have to intentionally  

Taige:    01:19:51    Oh no, no, I was not talking about Match.com. I don't think they do a good job of that. I was talking about Instagram. So a lot of people meet each other on Instagram because they follow someone and then they were like, oh, you're super cute. Let me slide into your DM or something. I'm not sure how they do it. But then they'll start chatting and then they'll try to date even though they live in different places or they'll meet each other through online communities. Like one of my friends, he met his wife through a gaming community, um, and then they just started chatting and then she's in the, she was living in the Philippines and he was living in California and then their first date, he actually flew over to a beach in the Philippines and met her. He brought his little brother too, just because in case it was unsafe.  

Kristin:    01:20:35    Uh, yeah. One of my friends and clients, um, in the poker community met his fiancé through Twitch and uh, yeah, they're engaged and they're from different countries.  

Taige:    01:20:48    Yeah. So, you know, this is happening. It's just, it's happening randomly because the product life FairyTrail does not exist and now it exists. So let's see what happens.  

Kristin:    01:20:59    Cool, cool. Okay, well this has been, sorry to keep you so long. We started late <laugh>, but we're uh, we're on a roll. So I'll get through the lightning round and then we can, uh, share where people can connect and like, download the app and it's free, right?  

Taige:    01:21:14    Yep. Well actually just last night I was thinking about charging $1 for it. We haven't decided if we should, because one of the coolest things about our app is people are sincere and sincerity is such a big thing in our community that I was thinking maybe we should just charge a dollar to weed out the people who are insincere. So right now it's free.  

Kristin:    01:21:36    It's all testing. We don't know, none of us know until we try. And then you see yes or no AV test.  

Taige:    01:21:43    Yeah. So let's see what happens. I, I think right now we're still leaning towards free, but let's, let's see, maybe the community will benefit from having a little, like a little barrier that just, you know, like you might have a million users and if they're disengaged and it's a horrible community, it's not as good as just having like a 50,000 community where people are engaged and they love it.  

Kristin:    01:22:09    Yeah. Yeah. Well see how it goes. I'll still download it for a dollar. <laugh>. Okay, so lightning round. My favorite question, what is your morning beverage of choice?  

Taige:    01:22:23    <laugh>. All right. You're gonna think I'm super Asian because of this answer. Uh, it's basically warm water.  

Kristin:    01:22:32    That is a good one. I used to do.  

Taige:    01:22:34    That's super Asian by the way. Like,  

Kristin:    01:22:35    I used to do warm water with lemon. I thought you were gonna say like bubble tea or something.  

Taige:    01:22:39    Oh, that's too much sugar. No. Yeah,  

Kristin:    01:22:42    Probably the best thing to drink.  

Taige:    01:22:43    That's probably the most Chinese thing you'll like ever <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:22:46    I have. I didn't even know that. I've only been to Hong Kong and Macal, so I need to get in there. But maybe after this Corona virus goes away. Yeah,  

Taige:    01:22:56    If you, if you live in the Chinese family, I'm sure one of the people in the Chinese family will be like, here, have some warm water.  

Kristin:    01:23:05    I'm down.  

Taige:    01:23:05    She'd get a host family in China.  

Kristin:    01:23:09    I love it. I lived with a host family in Costa Rica. I think it's the best way to get to know a culture fast. <laugh>.  

Taige:    01:23:14    Yeah. That's amazing.  

Kristin:    01:23:16    <laugh>, what single habit is most important to your productivity?  

Taige:    01:23:21    I think meditation because just spending 10 minutes can get you to do the right thing. Instead of being busy and working on the, on the wrong thing. You can feel really good and get really busy and just be doing things that actually set you back. So I think just stepping back and being reflective, um, helps so much.  

Kristin:    01:23:44    I like that. I like that you always, I can tell that you're very present and reflective in your answers. Like you pause, then you answer, you're in tune with your, uh, with your thoughts there. <laugh>.  

Taige:    01:23:56    <laugh>. Thank you.  

Kristin:    01:23:57    What are your peak work hours?  

Taige:    01:24:03    Like? Do you mean like when I have the most performance or when I do the most work?  

Kristin:    01:24:09    Yeah, like are you a night owl or an early morning person? Like I know my peak hours are from 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM That's when I do my best work. My worst time of day is from like three to five. I just, I'm over it at that point, but then I get another second wind at night, like now it's midnight.  

Taige:    01:24:36    Um, so I have this whole thing of trying to go to bed before 12. I'm, I aim for 10, but usually go to bed right before 12 <laugh> because I, I read that it is really, really good for you to do that. So I think I'm most creative at night, but sharpest in the morning.  

Kristin:    01:24:54    What is a remote work tool or app that you can't live without? It could be communication too.  

Taige:    01:25:02    Yeah. So I, I would say there's this new app called Tandem. I have you heard of it?  

Kristin:    01:25:07    Yeah, I featured them on my show.  

Taige:    01:25:10    Yeah, it seems like it's really hot right now. And I kind of like their mission and their kind of their direction. So I think that's pretty cool. I have, I don't use it, but I do think what they're doing is pretty cool and I might check them out.  

Kristin:    01:25:26    Are those the blockchain guys? Is it a Y Combinator company?  

Taige:    01:25:33    Yeah. So Tandem helps you feel like you're an office environment, so you're a less lonely and fairy True is pretty much doing the same thing. Like we, so Ryan Hoover wrote that loneliness is the number one problem faced by remote workers. And so we're actually solving that with FairyTrail. But in the workspace, sure, you might have like, oh, you might have found someone who is able to travel with you around the world and have awesome adventures, but what about when you're at work, you're still isolated from your coworkers and Tandem kind of solves that. So that's why I, I think they're pretty cool. We're kind of on like a similar kind of mission to help people with isolation because it's a trade off. Like when you want adventure and awesome life experiences, you do have to trade off community to some extent. But we hope to mitigate that.  

Kristin:    01:26:23    Yeah, I like that mission. I'm on board. This is so unrelated. <laugh>, what is your favorite meal restaurant or food you've had in your travels?  

Taige:    01:26:35    Oh no, it's super hard to, to, um, to answer. No, it's,  

Kristin:    01:26:40    Are you a foodie?  

Taige:    01:26:42    No, I wouldn't consider myself my, no, I wouldn't consider myself a foodie. I definitely enjoy it, but, Hmm. This is such a hard question though. Can I just like, give you a random one that I liked?  

Kristin:    01:26:54    There's no wrong answers. It's the lightning round <laugh>.  

Taige:    01:26:57    Yeah. So when I was in living in the uk, I would have my most amazing dinners with friends in zz, in Marla Bone in London. Um, it's just like, it's so cozy there and it's just pizza, but like the atmosphere, it's, and the people I'm with, maybe it's the people <laugh>, I don't know, it's maybe it's the people.  

Kristin:    01:27:22    Well, London has some cozy restaurants, so I wrote that down.  

Taige:    01:27:27    Yeah.  

Kristin:    01:27:28    Is it ZIZZI, yeah.  

Taige:    01:27:31    Zizi. And it's like a chain, so it's nothing fancy, but it's just, yeah, I, maybe it's the people, but when you have the right atmosphere and I I good food and the people, it's just magical.  

Kristin:    01:27:46    And what is your favorite leisure travel or adventure travel destination? Like somewhere you would wanna go when you're not working?  

Taige:    01:27:57    Wow. Well there's two, two ways to go about it. One is going somewhere completely new that I haven't been to, which is awesome. Like, I just love having new adventures and exploring the world. Like to me it's called exploring because I haven't been there. I know like it's probably been discovered, but for me it's exploring <laugh>. And then the other is going to like some go-to places that I really like. For example, Italy. I really love Italy 'cause it's super relaxing and just like, and it's also the atmosphere. Like just for example, like going to the lemon groves in Sorento, that's like such a amazing, um, feeling. And then just like having some food there and like the scenery is just amazing.  

Kristin:    01:28:40    Oh, that sounds nice. I haven't been there, but I know from Googling you that you've been to the Amalfi Coast and that is one of the most beautiful places in the world. I think so Italy is the first place I ever traveled to. And also I went there for my birthday two summers ago and that's when I was in Positano and I was like, Ugh, I just love this country and the food so good.  

Taige:    01:29:07    It's so good.  

Kristin:    01:29:08    My best friend. And I said that if we never get married, we will just have like a reception there. <laugh> for some reason. That's amazing because it's just so pretty. We're like, we should just have a party here, invite all of our friends, not get married, but just like, why not? You know? Because sometimes weddings are like this big event that happens and then what if you don't wanna get married? Or what if you don't get married? Does that mean you can't just have a really big party for no reason, no <laugh>. Like I'm gonna have one and it's gonna be in the Amalfi Coast.  

Taige:    01:29:43    Awesome. Yeah. I'll come.  

Kristin:    01:29:45    Okay. You're invited. <laugh> <laugh>. We should have like a big podcast party or something. Okay. I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll put it on the list. Anything's possible. Yeah. I I like that idea. But that's, that's what we're doing. We're just creating our reality, right?  

Taige:    01:30:01    Yeah. And like if you can have that intention and just hold onto it. Yeah, you can make it happen. Like it, it's only when you kind of kind of be like, no, it's not good. Then it's so easy. Like that's what I was saying about the Yes. Like if you have the intention, you want to do this, you'll see opportunities to do it. Otherwise you'll miss it.  

Kristin:    01:30:24    Yeah. It's true. Your awareness, you'll perceive them. They will come up, they will pop up. Well thank you so much, Taige. How can people download FairyTrail? Uh, join your group and connect with you and then we'll put all of your links in the show notes. But  

Taige:    01:30:42    Yeah, so to download FairyTrail, just search for FairyTrail. So it's like fairytale but hiking, right? So it's like trail at the end.  

Kristin:    01:30:52    T-R-A-I-L, FairyTrail App.  

Taige:    01:30:55    Oh yeah. That's a website. FairyTrail app. But if you just Google FairyTrail on Google, you'll, you'll see it and then you can be able, you can download it from the app store or whatnot. So, so that's our dating product. And Campfire is our community for like-minded people who are not looking to date or they are just looking to socialize in addition to, um, to like, 'cause dating is only one part of our lives. We're much more than dating. We're like awesome. Like business people we're awesome, like athletes, uh, artists. So all of that stuff goes into Campfire  where we help each other with our hobbies and ambitions. Cool. So that's kind of yeah. Where our community lives.  

Kristin:    01:31:39    Awesome. Yeah, humans, we're multifaceted guys. You never know what you could be good at or what you might like or who you might like until you put yourself out there. So do it. Thank you so much, Taige, for coming on and sharing about your personal journey as well as the products you're creating for people who love adventure and travel and community. And everyone. We'll see you on the next episode of Badass Digital Nomads. Thanks for being such a badass. And if you guys wanna go to Italy and have a party, let me know. Instagram @TravelingwithKristin.  

Taige:    01:32:17    You should start a mailing list for people who want to go to your big party in Italy.  

Kristin:    01:32:24    All right. I'm setting up a landing page or you are <laugh>, I'll help you with your YouTube. You help me with some <laugh>. With some-  

Taige:    01:32:31    You'll get like 10,000 or like a hundred thousand people on your guest list.  

Kristin:    01:32:36    Validated. I'm just gonna move to Italy. Things come full circle. My family immigrated from there. I have to go back to host parties in Lemon Groves on the Amalfi Coast, <laugh>, stranger things have happened.  

Taige:    01:32:48    That'll be fun.  

Kristin:    01:32:50    Okay. All right. Well, I'll see you on the internet. Awesome.  

Taige:    01:32:54    Cool. Well, thanks so much for having me. Really enjoyed chatting. Yeah, we'll keep in touch and collaborate.  

Kristin:    01:33:01    Yeah, for sure. I'll see you in Campfire too.  

Taige:    01:33:03    Awesome.  

Kristin:    01:33:13    Thanks so much for listening to help support this podcast and help it grow. Please leave a review in the Apple Podcast store and send this or your favorite episode to a friend for weekly travel videos, live streams, and even more interviews. Make sure to subscribe to my YouTube channels at youtube.com/digitalnomad and Traveling with Kristin. See you soon.  

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