How to Adopt Remote Work and Adapt to Change and Uncertainty with an Australian Tech Founder and CEO

Kristin:    00:00:00    But it's really surreal to think that hundreds of millions of people potentially now have remote work experience and everybody knows that they don't even need to put it on their job application anymore. <laugh>, like any company looking for remote employees, they're like, well, everybody has now worked from home. Or like, you know, probably the majority of people or studied from home will have all of this entire, um, generation of young people who have now done remote learning. And it's just, that's the new normal now. So it's such an interesting time.  

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin:  Do you love my podcast videos and writing and wanna get more involved? Now you can. Introducing the official launch of my new Patreon page, where for only $5 a month, you can support my content and get a ton of added benefits and value as a patron. You'll get to watch my new YouTube videos before everyone else attend Patron only monthly live streams, vote on next videos and podcast guests or topics, get special discounts on merch and swag, and get access to exclusive content like unlisted video interviews, articles I haven't published anywhere else, house and apartment tours, personal updates, and plenty of behind the scenes footage and surprises throughout the year. Become a patron of Badass Digital Nomads and Traveling with Kristin today at patreon.com/TravelingwithKristin. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TravelingwithKristin. And thank you so much for all your support.  

Kristin:    00:02:06    Matt Barnett is a British designer who is also the CEO of Bonjoro, a video marketing app out to disrupt conventional business communication with personalized video emails. As many of you know, I'm partial to sending people videos instead of messages myself. So I was very excited to host him on the podcast and talk about how using video in your email marketing can transform your business and customer experience. Matt is also a very interesting person who's a snowboarder, surfer, juggler and wildlife rescue volunteer. He's also the co-founder of X Tech, a mastermind of 200 Sydney based founders, investors, and athletes who meet throughout the year to share business ideas and have fun. In the first half of this episode, we discuss what's on everyone's mind, of course, the coronavirus, how we're coping, how things are going in Matt's home of Sydney, and how we foresee life changing on the other side of the pandemic.  

Kristin:    00:03:21    We then go back in time a bit and talk about what Van Life was like in Portugal 15 years ago, how Matt funded his travels to places like Bali and Honduras as a young 20 something and how he ended up in Australia after a breakup. We then talk about how to transition from being an artist to a CEO trade, some stories and tips. And then in the second half of the interview, we delve into Matt's remote work advice for people and companies who have been sent home for coronavirus, like how to operate across time zones, how to maintain a company culture remotely, what types of job perks employers should be offering, and how to combat loneliness. So without further ado, let's jump right in. And remember, you can access the video version of this interview as one of my badass digital nomad patrons over at patreon.com/TravelingwithKristin. Let's just start with that, 'cause that's the one thing on everyone's mind and for reference for people listening today is March 20th and this morning I woke up to messages that California has been on lockdown that Australia's borders will be closed for the next six months. And that's where you are right now, <laugh>. So  

Matt:     00:04:48    Last night it happened, nine, 9:00 PM last night shut down. So I can't go see my parents who are in the UK.  

Kristin:    00:04:54    Yeah, I mean that's something that I've realized. I was supposed to go visit my niece and my brother in April, and now I can't see them. And all of a sudden I'm starting to have this panic that I won't be able to see my family members for like the foreseeable future. And that's really scary. But how are, what is the vibe in Australia right now? Because I've kind of had tunnel vision because it's too overwhelming to think about how to cope with this situation. So I've just been taking it day by day trying to isolate myself from the news as much as possible and just give myself enough to remain an informed citizen without going into panic mode.  

Matt:     00:05:32    Well, let's see, the thing, I would like to believe this, I, I thought Australia was more chilled out, um, but a month ago, like all, like everyone did the whole toilet paper run, um, I mean it started here. People just started doing it. And this was like, and Australia had like five cases <laugh>, so people went, went full on panic mode here and off the back of that, you then have this challenge where I'd say, I guess the more the more sane people, then you then go to the shops. You see a third of all the s gone. You're like, well, the problem now is that I don't wanna panic buy, but I actually need things. And thanks to everyone else, we're now, I mean, this is how bullins happen. It started and, and the majority can't help it. Well, what do you do?  

Kristin:    00:06:14    The psychological aspect of this is more terrifying than the, than the health aspect for me because it's like multiple disasters in one with the economy and then the mental health side of things and the financial side of things. Um, it's weird, it's weird to think that a few months ago we just thought 2020 was gonna be another regular year. And now I'm like, is this how it ends? Like do we actually come out of this or are we just gonna be quarantined for the next nine months? I don't know. We don't know.  

Matt:     00:06:50    I'm not optimistic. Let's, so just here now we're just kind of coming into Autumn, which is, well, no, we are in autumn. So in Australia it's probably the best time of year 'cause it's, it's not crazy hot. Um, it's pretty cool. The rains have come down a bit and, and to fair, we, we, we work remote a lot anyway. Um, a few of us have have shed offices that we use for San purposes where we'll go in a couple times a week just to be around other humans. A lot of the team don't even do that. And I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm outside in the morning, um, doing some work and we live on the bush, so we live kind of like outside the city a little bit. Uh, so my backyard, and I'll show you if we finish a podcast and it's light is just forest.  

Matt:     00:07:31    And so the Kokab Bowers are flying in the, yeah, the sun's shining. Everything's coming in. And I'm thinking, well, if this is the end of the world, this is quite a cool place to be. Um, but I'm an optimist. I think most of my team are optimists. Uh, it's gonna be a challenge. I do not think it's the end of the world remotely. I think like everything else, this, this too shall pass and it'll be challenging, but hey, look, there's gonna be, there's light the end of the tunnel and there'll be benefits at the end of the tunnel as well.  

Kristin:    00:08:00    Yeah, I, I agree. I actually wrote, well, two days ago I did a live stream out here in my backyard and it was just a beautiful day. Instead of the bush, I have the Everglades behind me, so I have, oh, that's awesome. Manatees and alligators and sharks. And there's a baby barracuda that lives by my dock and I think it's really cute. And my brother was like, Kristin, Barracuda aren't cute. What are you talking about? But it is, it's, it just sits there all day and it tries to hide and it's like funding for itself out there in the wild. But I also wrote an article on Medium that I haven't published yet, but it's in draft and it just says, what if this is a good thing? And it's like, what if all of these good things happened because of Coronavirus, all else held constant, you know, people are dying.  

Kristin:    00:08:45    And that is very, um, that is very serious. But also I saw some statistics that lives are being saved in China because there's, the pollution has dropped so significantly. I don't wanna quote the exact number, but I wanna say they said like 77,000 people didn't die in the past few months due to pollution. So that is another story completely. But anyway, we're, even though you and I are both remote workers, we're still adjusting to just the, the cognitive side of being aware of what's going on everywhere in the world. And we'll see what happens. But I think I'm an optimist too, and all else held constant. My day-to-day life hasn't been too impacted yet.  

Matt:     00:09:33    We'll see that they'll be impacts, they say like the environmental thing. I have to admit, having just gone through bushfire season here and this world of hell in Australia, um, it's, it's a good year for the environment, I have to say. Uh, I think the bushfires brought a lot of awareness to some of the challenges, uh, the world's having, um, starting with the Amazon and then going here, which was kind of insane. And then, now this is obviously doing a good thing for the environment. I, I, I, I think on top of that, a lobby, workplaces will have to change. Like this is the kind of rise of remote working. I I think it was really interesting study done in London where it was like 2017. They, I think they had, um, they had tube strikes. And I'm assuming you've been, you've been to London, you know how much London thrives on the tube.  

Matt:     00:10:19    Without it, you can't get anywhere. Yeah. And so when it, it shut down for an entire week and everyone had to change their travel plans or their work plans. So some people just worked at home, some people start biking into work rather than taking the tubes, some people start walking in. And what happened, and bear mind this, this was only a single week after it went back to normal, 5% of the commuters, uh, stuck to their, their new plans. So either working from a remote mall or biking in or walking in or whatever else. Now if 5% of that entire population, and it's a big city, it's like seven, 8 million people, um, if 5% of the population commuting change their commute forever because of one week of disruption, after a few months of disruption, I can tell you there's gonna be a large percentage of businesses who will be like, oh, no, working, working remote's actually pretty, pretty productive. Oh, it's actually pretty good. And you know, I'm not saying everyone will jump full time, but they'll be like, okay, look, let's be, be more flexible around this. Operations will change. Um, it's gonna have an impact on city centers that potentially will change and maybe where people will live, maybe where like business hubs become softwares and technologies that support, like, there'll be a lot that will come out of this, which I think ultimately will be a benefit to, um, the average working person.  

Kristin:    00:11:34    I agree. It has been completely mind-boggling to me to see people who have told me face-to-face that their company can't implement remote work policies. It won't work for them. I have friends who are executives at Google who said that, you know, it doesn't work for Google. They need face-to-face communication. And now those same people are posting on Twitter and LinkedIn about how great remote work is and how to do it as if they have all of this experience with it. And I'm like, oh my God, for the past four years you guys have been resisting adopting remote work and ignoring all of my advice. And now overnight you're like as if, oh yeah, we, we already did this, or we know all about remote work. And it's just like, I'm, I'm glad that people have been forced into it in a way because I really genuinely think that it has so many benefits, just the concept of remote working from economic benefits to environmental, to cost savings, to quality of life and flexibility and all of these other things. So I think it will be good that a large portion of the global population will now be able to work remotely after this is all said and done. Um, but it's just been interesting to see like the reaction from so many people who said that it wasn't viable and you know, that they couldn't trust their employees to work from home or they wouldn't be productive, or they needed to have this many meetings every day and now all of a sudden they're on board with it. So, but I'm still happy that they're doing it.  

Matt:     00:13:11    The trusting is good. I mean, like, if you don't trust your employees, you've got a fundamental issue anyway, <laugh>, you know, that that, that, that's a cultural challenge. That's nothing to do with remote working. I think I'm like, let's just human nature, you know, like I, I'm sure those out there who started traveling when they're young, uh, would've had a family who didn't do that and were probably resistant to it. You know, you go the answer of the world and you travel and everyone says, you know, you can't, you can't just, you can't just go away for a year or for two years. And you're like, well, and then the second you do it, or even the second you get them to join you or come along, whatever, once you've taken that first step, ev-everything changes very, very quickly. And the same with remote work, or the same with anything new. You know, I couldn't possibly do that. The hardest thing is the first step, once you've done this first step, the rest of it just follows. And suddenly you're like, okay, I'm at my comfort zone, but this is a lot easier than I thought.  

Kristin:    00:14:03    Yeah, I think the biggest thing is to just start and to just do it. And that's exactly what you did because you weren't always the CEO of a major tech company. You were at one point just a student or just a photographer, you know, a solopreneur, a freelancer, just doing your own thing or working in entry level jobs. And so many years later now things are quite different. So it's easy to look back and or, or it's easy to sometimes forget and to take for granted what people already know in their daily lives and the skills that they already have. But when you can look back to how far you've come, I think it can be a lot more apparent, um, how much everyone has accomplished. So let's, let's go back a little bit in time to when you were living in the UK and you were an artist and you were studying. How did you kind of start in your passion around art and photography and how did that lead into working in the tech business?  

Matt:     00:15:13    Yeah, so I'm a creative, like always have been. Uh, but I also have this other side of my brain, which is probably the maths and physics side. So I ended up studying, uh, design at uni, so product design and industrial design. I went to this weird design school, which was in, in a castle out near, uh, Windsor, which is where the queen lives. So in a car. So my university experience was 600 designers in a castle in the middle of the countryside. So quite unusual, uh, had its benefits. But when you, when you live with 600 creatives, it also gets kind of weird. Um, that sounds amusing. It's pretty, it was pretty, pretty, pretty interesting. And, um, I did work as a, like I worked in a design agency for a little while, but then very quickly kind of started doing my own things, started exhibiting more of my artwork.  

Matt:     00:16:00    I was actually pretty good at it because I, I guess I probably approached it from a more business mindset. I think it's just naturally I thought like, well, how, well, how do you turn this into something that that could support you and, and do it for life? So I kind of skipped the whole starving artist piece. I think on my first year I kind of did 22 ex-exhibitions my first year I've ever trying it found it wasn't that hard to get there. However, I have to admit it was an industry where you are, it's all about the personal brand. So I think to, well, 99% of successful artists build their personal brand. And I would say 99% of successful artists. And I met Mark Quinn and, and Damien Hurst and stuff, and in the uk and they were very much running businesses where they had, I think offices full of, of people doing their art, and they would walk up and sign it.  

Matt:     00:16:47    And I kind of still behind the scenes and I was like, this is, this is not for me. You know, they, they direct the art, um, and they just walk up and put a signature on the end and set up for 50, a hundred grand. And I'm like, okay, look, I understand that it's great. Um, but if I'm gonna do business, I wanna do something that's kind of, that holds true. I felt that was a little, that was against my kind of moral and the kind of reasons for doing it. So at the time I was in relationship, that ended. So I thought this is a good time to go to Australia. I wanted to come here. She didn't, she was actually American. Um, how old  

Kristin:    00:17:17    Were you at this point?  

Matt:     00:17:19    26. So this is the third time I, I came to Australia, so I, I've been back and forth quite a bit. I've gone back to the UK because training to be a designer. At the end of the day, the UK's amazing for this, like UK and Berlin, kind of the epicenters, like Europe's got a long design history. Australia, it's not a design that created country. Like I, I love Australia. I wouldn't say it's great for culture <laugh> to, to be frankly honest. Everyone's too busy hanging out on the beach. Um,  

Kristin:    00:17:45    Yeah, they say that about Florida too.  

Matt:     00:17:47    Yeah. So like, if you want culture, this is not the country for you, but if you like the outdoors, it, it's amazing. Um, look, so I moved back and I moved back here. You'll find that when people move countries, uh, very often it's either off the back of a, of a, of a bad relationship or at the start of a good relationship.  

Kristin:    00:18:04    That is true, true words.  

Matt:     00:18:06    There's always, there's always like, there's always points that, that make you change. And so I moved here, didn't MBA, um, which is not a big thing in the UK and not a big thing in Australia. I know in the states, it, it, it, it, it, it's a thing. I I I thought it had something to do with ba with, uh, with basketball. When I first heard about it, <laugh>, I, it suggested to me, uh, by an American friend, they like should do one of these things as a way to get in and get a visa. And I thought, look, this is great. I get to hang out with non creatives, you know, as much as I love them creatives, I wanna start a business. And, and a lot of creatives weren't great. A lot of young creatives are not in the mindset to start a businesses. So I moved here, hung out with a lot of accountants and tech people and, and, and corporates and consultants, which is really enjoyable. Um, but I use that, that time, those 18 months to start a business here.  

Kristin:    00:18:53    Okay. So I wanna go back a little bit to your travels. And I actually wanna make a point quickly about the MBA because one of the things that happen when people start traveling and become digital nomads or start working for themselves is that they can end up in different places because they got a tip from somebody. And some, sometimes it's from a friend or a family member, like, oh, I think you should go to business school. That would be helpful. And you're like, oh, let me look into it. And then you end up doing that. It's like, if you didn't have that conversation, maybe your life would've gone in a totally different trajectory. And I've noticed a lot of digital nomads in like their first, second, third year and even expats, they find themselves in these countries because somebody told them about it or someone said, I'm going here, do you wanna come with me? And then they ended up there. So I'm curious, I'm not saying that's good or bad 'cause I've, I've done that too. But I'm curious if, um, where you traveled, like where was your first trip out of the country, out of the uk and then what were some of the places that you went when you traveled around the world and is that how you met your first, your serious relationship?  

Matt:     00:20:01    I, I, I had to, the caveat is I traveled a lot when I was younger because my father ran a business which was half, in half in Florida, where my brother now lives there, runs it, um, half in the uk. So he was back and forth two weeks, two weeks, two weeks, two weeks all the time traveling the world. So we got exposed quite a lot. I spent a lot of, a lot of my childhood in the States, which is interesting because the culturally very different to the uk. So very early on that got me excited about other cultures. So I think that upbringing probably inspired some of that. Um, and then I went off, I finished school. So you finished school 18 in the uk? Um, I was off to Australia very quickly, about six months here, and then went to, um, so Honduras and the Bay Islands.  

Matt:     00:20:44    Uh, I, I, I was a scuba driver, so worked, um, as a diver for six months down there. Uh, traveled around Honduras and kind of Central America quite a bit as well. Um, and then did Europe for maybe a few months surfing. So, um, in the UK we all had vans. So there was I think 22 of us in Vans. We drove from, we got from London to to Lisbon in 22 hours nonstop driving. Wow. Um, and then we just surfed the coast of Portugal, Spain and France for, for months. And back in the day you could just compound your vans in, in any car park. And so it was very much a kind of, I guess, hedonist bohemian lifestyle for a few months, which is amazing.  

Kristin:    00:21:26    So how long ago was that that you were doing the hashtag band life?  

Matt:     00:21:31    So am 35 now. I was probably 19, went to the first, the first van trip. So  

Kristin:    00:21:37    Way before YouTube.  

Matt:     00:21:38    Oh yeah. Well, like way back, like, like again, like, like everything was easier. Like I know if you go now, like you can't, you can't just camp up anywhere and have parties all night in on beaches in Lisbon. Like it's, it's not a thing you can do. Um, but it was all European travel, so again, like, so South America was kind of global travelers. Australia was, is very global. So if you come to, if you come over here, even now living here as I'm older, uh, 95% of my friends are not Australian or English. So most of my friends are from different cultures because it's, it's, it's a big cultural multi pot. And I'm sure we'll talk about this, when you move to a country, you hang out with other people who move there as well at the same time because you're all new. And so, I mean that's, that's that the number one thing about moving country is not about meeting people necessarily that country. It's about the fact you get thrown into a melting pot of cultures and your friendship groups and your understanding of the world is so much better for it.  

Kristin:    00:22:31    Totally. I, I still remember my first day at orientation, I went to Griffith Uni for a semester on the Gold Coast of Australia. Yeah. And I had just done a semester in Costa Rica and then I went straight into a semester in Australia and I remember the first day I was feeling homesick for Costa Rica and I remember eating lunch with a group of guys from all different Spanish speaking countries. So there's like Spain, Chile, uh, Venezuela, Mexico, and I was sitting there speaking Spanish with them and I was like, how weird is this? I had this like, out of body experience. I'm like, I feel at home with these random guys from all these different Spanish speaking countries in Australia. And I kind of bonded with them more than, you know, other American students for example. So at the end of the six months, I, I had friends from all over the country or all over the world. And that is, I think one of the, those are the defining moments in life right now. And that's something that we're all finding out with the, um, with the social isolation is that we're like all separate, but we're all together at the same time. And, and that's what travel does is it gives you that sense of empathy and connectedness with other, other cultures that it's like, yeah, we're all part of the human race. We're all in this together. We're all figuring it out and traveling around the world at the same time,  

Matt:     00:23:54    Australia or the UK or or South Africa, like a western culture isn't a bad thing to start off with. Fear your first kind of road trip and then, you know, buy a car and drive around the, the country. I think we, we, we drove around the whole of Australia, I mean the whole of it, the entire coastline in six weeks, which was a stupid idea 'cause it's the size of the states. Wow. <laugh>. So, you know, we, but we got, we got and we did it. And um, like, so once you saw that at uni, a few of us who went to uni had all done like years out and we just couldn't stop traveling. So every semester and you had pretty like, like eight week breaks. We went to Java for I think two months and we trekked, you know, from um, Jakarta all the way down to like beyond Bain into Lombok and, and the islands we traveled through, we'd like been surfing with locals all down the coast.  

Matt:     00:24:39    Couldn't really speak language, but kind of got by. Um, and then we got to Bali and I remember at the time thinking finally we can go and party and meet, you know, meet some, some people. And we, we were there for two days and we hated it and we left the next and we left. Two days later we we're back off to some islands with some locals. It, it had kind of broken us where we're like, you know what, this western, this western life is not all, it's uh, all it's knocked up to be. And it changes the way that you see people. It changes what you enjoy, it changes the cultures that you connect with. And it was, and it was amazing. That's kind of stayed for life since then. So I think, you know, anyone traveling, yeah, try start, try western country, but you have to go into third world countries as well and you have to spend serious time there and try multiple ones. And I think that's probably one of the best things you can ever do because it really gives you, you know, a a an appreciation for, for what the most of the world is really like. Because I think we're very, we're very lucky in Western cultures, but it's not the norm.  

Kristin:    00:25:32    Yeah. We're, we're definitely lucky to even be able to travel to a lot of those places with just our passports anyway. Um, I've had people commenting like, can you do some videos and topics about how to travel to these places if you need to get a visa? So it's realizing that you have the ability to travel there in the first place. Is this just something that you become deeply, deeply grateful for? But you make a really good point, and this is something I tell my relocation clients to start off in a country, if it's their first time living abroad, to start off in a country that is kind of more similar to their home culture, if it's western, you know, more western culture and, and that kind of, um, lifestyle. And then what happens to everybody is after their first stint abroad, they get the confidence and a bigger comfort zone to be able to expand it and go to other places.  

Kristin:    00:26:26    So I remember 10 years ago or nine years ago, helping people move to Costa Rica for the first time they had been living in their pa their parents' basement apartment in Kansas. And then within the first year after spending three months in Costa Rica, they were off to Taiwan and South Korea and all these other places that I didn't even work in that they just had that confidence and had generated a new skillset of being self-sufficient out in the world and trusting themselves to be able to survive in any country. And so I think that's very relatable what you said to start with like a gap year and then all of a sudden <laugh> you just don't stop. You're traveling everywhere in the world and going to farther, farther places away that are wilder. And just everyone listening, imagine Bali 15 years ago was completely different to how it is now, but then imagine all of the other islands in Indonesia 15 years ago. I mean, Lombok is close to Bali, but then from Java and all of the other islands on the chain, like that would've been very, very remote 15 years ago. It's remote now, but that would've been really cool  

Matt:     00:27:37    If you wanna get o off the grid. Uh, I found Google Maps is, is your best friend for this. So, and you find using the country first as you get bigger start to use do globally. So we went to Vanuatu and there's two islands which everyone goes to, which are touristy as hell. They have all these resorts and we, I remember we, we, we were there, we only spend a few days there getting our feet. We ended up spending one day and flying out early <laugh> and you suddenly find this, we're like, okay, where else should we go? And I was like, well there's 78 other islands we could pick. And so we just go onto Google, Google Maps and found our ways on. I was like, this place looks great 'cause you can see there's loads of coral reef. So imagine the diving, there's great, let's try and get there.  

Matt:     00:28:13    And then we just like start island hopping, get lists with locals down down these little islands in the middle of nowhere and we end up just against going off the grid. Didn't see a white person for the whole time. There again. Um, Google Maps is amazing 'cause I'm like, okay, right. So how do you avoid the common places and the tourisms? I went this island and I'm, and I'm like, we, we were the first white people they had there and you know, they had some people food, but the first people in months we just lived with 'em and hung out with 'em for like, you know, a couple weeks and it's, you, you can still get off the grid. I, I think that's the point I'm trying to make. It was easier 15 years ago, 16 years ago, it was a lot easier. Um, it's, but you can still do it. You've just gotta go to more obscure places, um, and just be willing to kind of make that jump.  

Kristin:    00:28:57    Yeah. And and it was definitely more stressful without Google Maps because I've been lost in all kinds of places before. <laugh> from like Italy to, um, once my friend and I, it was like 2003, we, we found this like $30 flight from Australia to Fiji and we had like eight layovers to get there 'cause it was such a cheap flight. And we ended up on like an island off an island, off an island on Fiji. And there weren't there, we had like flip phones, you know, there was no blackberry or any kind of like internet on your phone. And we got stranded on this island because a big storm came through and none of the boats could get in or out. And so we were just like literally on a deserted island with this Fijian family. And then on the other side of the island, there was a small village. We were just stuck there for like a week and you know, nobody really knew where we were. They knew we were in Fiji, but like luckily it all worked out <laugh>. But now you'd be like, okay, hey, I'm here. Like we're stuck. It's a hurricane or whatever. But yeah, so we just, so on that note, it was like you had kinda had to accept the circumstances, but now it's a lot more, I have a bigger sense, um, peace of mind when I travel because of technology. So that's good.  

Matt:     00:30:16    So we had the same thing. We got stuck in on pan water on the island and every day we go to the airfield and the plane wouldn't come. And I think, so I think more than ever in this day and age, I kind of think you should go and experience that because I think you should be forced to go offline and forced to drop your phone behind. And like, and obviously like, you know, we've had the experience of growing up in the world without, without mobile phones, you know, and without that, so it's probably easy, easy for us to drop offline, but I think you need to drop offline. Like we are off to the mountains hiking this weekend. So it is Saturday morning here when we finish this call, we're gonna go with that with our daughter. We've got a hiking backpack and we are just gonna go and escape because the world's got a bit mad.  

Matt:     00:30:55    Yeah. Um, and just leave our phones behind and be like, what, you know what switch off? And this is for someone who runs a tech company. I'm like, my, my life is online. And I'm like, so you like, I need to, you need to just can it at some point. Um, so if you, if you can fireplace in the world where you get lost and you have to do it, it might be stressful for a couple of days and then you just go, you know what? Live in the moment, enjoy it. And it's, if you can get to a stage where you could do that in your everyday life and on your weekends and things, I think it's much healthier for or for life.  

Kristin:    00:31:28    I was thinking of adopting my own version of the Sabbath because I think having a day every week that you completely disconnect from technology is really helpful. And I feel really lucky that I ended up, after 10 years of considering it, I did a vipasana meditation course in January, so I was offline for at least two weeks in the mountains. And that really prepared me in hindsight to cope with what's going on right now. Because I said when that was over, I was like, I'll never, I'm never gonna be addicted to technology again. I'm never gonna be bored again because I've just sat here for like 12 days in silence doing absolutely nothing with no technological stimulation or like electronic devices. And so that, I feel like that was very positive for my peace of mind and my mental health. And that's something that I was inspired to carry over regardless of being so involved in tech.  

Kristin:    00:32:27    And of course I'm not the CEO of a tech company, but you know, all of us are connected 24 7. Um, I saw a stat, it was like 90% of people allegedly sleep with their phone within arm's reach. I mean it's a, it's intense. So we've gotta get that, that distance. And actually I read on your LinkedIn, um, when I was googling you <laugh> that you founded something, is it called X Tech where it's like a mastermind, like a tech mastermind in Australia of other entrepreneurs and you guys just kind of get off the grid and go do sports and outdoor activities and things like that. Can you talk a bit about that, how you had the idea for that and what are the, the benefits for the group?  

Matt:     00:33:09    Yeah, so like, like every story I had in my life, it was never an idea. It just kinda happened. <laugh>, this is how we start the company, everything. So, uh, I used to surf with a, with another founder friend who basically ran, ran the, um, the Uber before Uber came out in Australia. And so we would go every Wednesday morning at five 30 and every Saturday morning at five 30. Uh, the Saturday mornings were hard because we, we still used to party quite hard on the Friday, Friday night. <laugh> surfing when you're, when you're hungover is, is horrible. Um, but we would do it anyway and eventually, especially on the Wednesday, one other, other founders that, that we got to know would start to join us. And this is, it's gotta be like nine years ago now. Australia's way behind the world in terms of tech.  

Matt:     00:33:51    Um, we have a few unicorns now like Canva and Atlassian, but at that time they were very few. Um, so it's quite a close knit community, which was great. See, I mean even today you kind of know everyone, you know, we have this kind of, this group us that have gone through and we did the surfing, you few, the founders joined us and then we decided to do a weekend away and we rented a couple of houses, um, like four hours up the coast. Um, and we all surfed and we all brought our partners along as well. Um, so, so us girls, we all, we all kinda hung out for a weekend and it was great. The partners gotta know each other. And I think when you date someone, like someone who's running a business, um, girl or guy, doesn't matter, like, like you, you'll be taken on that journey of ups and downs.  

Matt:     00:34:35    So you need to be, be quite strong and, and you need support. And so obviously meeting partners was really good. And then while we were there, I think one of the guys had raised a couple million bucks. Somebody had like fired his like, um, co-founder gone to that breakup. And so that evening it just so happened, ended up a few people ended up talking about, you know, story for like an hour, why we're eating, why we're cooking together. And we were like, this is really good. And then we ran another one and never started inviting more people. Ran another one, ran another one. And so now it's got a stage where we probably run two to three a year. So we do an early summer trip, which is where we now hire out. I say a resort, it's like a, it's like a resort from the seventies, but it's, it's, it's a big place.  

Matt:     00:35:18    We, we, we've capped at 60 people. Um, 'cause what I found, what we found was if you go bigger than that, you don't get to talk to everyone. So we kind of cap it there. I agree. It's all fans as a mix. Some of the guys are running, you know, some of the guys have raised 20 mils. Some of the guys, uh, we invite some like new, some new starters that that that, that we meet that have got like the right attitude and uh, that are like us most people kite surf or surf or, or or go diving or, or paddle boarding. Um, not everyone does, but most of us spend the days going outdoors together. Um, we tend to go offline and then we do, we, we still hold to the format of doing three talks in the evening that are generally big talks.  

Matt:     00:35:56    And then we'll do, um, Sunday morning with breakfast, we'll get three more. And the ones on Sunday morning we tend to do more around advice. So somebody who's got a really unique growth channel will talk through how they built that or funnel or something else. Um, on the evening we'll do the big talks. Yeah. And these tend to be the more emotional ones. So, you know, guys who who've like struggled and struggled and gone through challenges. I'm sure at the end of this scenario, the next one we have when we're, when we can get back together, I'm assuming we'll probably have, you know, one person who's, who's tackled it and gone through really well. Other people who've like hit massive challenges 'cause of covid and survived and got through and how they did it. Maybe somebody who lost out uh, and closed 'cause that might happen.  

Matt:     00:36:38    Um, but it's, it's not so much a formal thing as a group of friends who happen to run businesses and like to surf and get outdoors, but it's, it's, it's, it's the best group I've ever been part of. It's best thing we've ever done. It's, it's better the than than the company in terms of a support group and guys in our world. It's, it's amazing like all your best friends and coming from there and to fair talk about the traveling thing because Australia, probably 90% of those people are not Australian. 'cause you find a lot of founders here are people who've it's, it, it's it's natural bias. 'cause people who who are willing to move country are also willing to take risks and start companies. Um, so yeah, great group. If if you, if you ever stumble across one of these, get involved or or if not, start it yourself. Yeah,  

Kristin:    00:37:25    I would say start your own. Um, I mean, I think a big part of the reason why in hindsight, I think I was quite depressed in the, the probably two or three years before starting my personal brand of Traveling with Kristin because I was an on online entrepreneur traveling wherever I wanted in the world, making, uh, easy six figures a year and living the best life on paper. But I felt so lonely. And this is a big problem for people. They, they wanna know how to meet other, like-minded people and they don't wanna feel isolated just in their houses all the time. And so I would echo that advice and say, just start your own. And it doesn't have to be something really big. And obviously we can't go anywhere right now and have large gatherings and you don't have to be a tech founder and you don't have to stay at a five star resort, but you can just start your own little group.  

Kristin:    00:38:19    Like I'm in a mastermind, there's three of us and we meet once a week at 4:00 PM Central European time. We've been doing it for over a year now, almost a year and a half. And it's me and you guys, we're all in different industries, different businesses, and we just talk, it's like therapy for an hour once a week. And then, you know, you don't have to, there's some that you can pay for to join, but you can also just start your own with like two or three people and then you can start adding more things. Like one of my goals in the future is to have an in real life retreat with people from my community so that we can all hang out together. And of course I go to events and conferences and I meet people there as well. But then also one day when I was living in Japan, feeling very isolated because I had hurt my neck snowboarding and broke my hand.  

Kristin:    00:39:09    I started a Facebook group just with my sister was my first member <laugh> in my group. And now there's 3000 people in it, you know, so in my YouTube channel, my first subscribers were my cousins and my family members, and now there's almost 11,000 people. So if you don't start it, it won't happen, you know, so either join one or just start your own. And even if it's just two or three people that is gonna be, it's gonna be so helpful for your business and for your mindset, just, um, having that check-in every week or every month or whenever you make it. So totally agree with that. That is great advice. And I wanna be a part of your group <laugh>.  

Matt:     00:39:49    If you're over here, you can let us. We, we, we, we do do a, I surf, so we do a snowboard trip as well. So we do a wi a winter trip where we all go snowboarding and then all just in onesies in the evening and tell stories <laugh>. So <laugh>, uh, while drinking green bite,  

Kristin:    00:40:03    I surf and snowboard. So I feel like I'm a good fit. I need to learn to kite surf though.  

Matt:     00:40:07    So a a lot, a lot of the guys who come instructors say, just come along. They'll, they'll teach you. So,  

Kristin:    00:40:12    Okay, good. For sure. Well, let's shift into your business because, um, for everybody listening, this is so, such an interesting example of what a small world it is in the remote community. So I heard about a Bonjoro, which is Matt's company. I heard about it two years ago when I was in London at the Youpreneur Summit, and it instantly resonated with me because as you guys know, I love video and many of you have probably received a video from me. I really hate email. And so I usually send people video messages on Facebook Messenger and on WhatsApp and all different platforms. And I can't believe, I don't use, I, I mean I'm signing up with Bonjoro today because I already do what you guys do, but in a, in a lesser way, like in a, a lesser automated, less scalable way, like a more just kind of haphazard, I'm sending people videos on all these different platforms and I'm not tracking it. So it makes so much sense to use Bonjoro. But can you explain to us, um, anyway, full circle, here's Matt on my podcast, even though we were in the same room two years ago in London and we didn't even meet. So you never know what's gonna happen, but, um, can you explain to us a bit about what Bonjoro is and why people should know about it?  

Matt:     00:41:30    Yeah, so we are a personalized video messaging system. So we play with all, so if you use a, if you use a market system like, like MailChimp or HubSpot or you use a sales system like Intercom or Salesforce or, or active campaign or, or, or, or even Patreon or, or, or Shopify, we basically plug into that and we say at certain points on a customer journey. So new, new inquiries, first time customers, our peoples, when they hit their, you know, their first year of working with you are these are these points we call triggers. We send them into DU and we say, look, this is a great time to send a personalized message to John, uh, at Ogilvy or, or Jenny or or whoever. And so we kind of set these up in the app and we show you what that, who the customer is, where they live in the world, potentially what they've done with your business, if they're an annual customer, maybe what they've done in that year.  

Matt:     00:42:21    And so you can record very quickly. You can record a message and say, you know, Hey John, saw you sign up with us a year ago and you are on X plan. And over that year, you know, you've, you've done X, Y, and z. Just wanna say how much you know your customer means to us. Um, it's amazing. Been having you. If we could do anything else to help you at this point, do let us know, um, potentially like, you know, here, here's an offer for next year or here's a, here's a congratulations. That video is then packaged up and sent. We do all the delivery, we track it. Um, so you essentially spend a minute doing the video and then we take care of everything else. Um, but so here's the thing. Yeah, like, it's not about video <laugh> to be honest. Um, it's about stopping for a minute to acknowledge customers and leads and showing there's the space of humans behind the brand.  

Matt:     00:43:06    Now video hap at the, at the moment at least, and I hope it stays true, is hard to fake. So when you send people messages, they're like, oh, this is actually Kristin, oh, this is actually Matt and someone stopped and acknowledged me. And you've obviously, you obviously do this and it works amazingly. And, and the stuff that works, by the way is not sitting in your office behind a computer doing these. It's, it's, it's in the kitchen with your kids running around your feet. Um, it's, it's, it's walking that down the road to get a coffee. I mean, you send these people like, wow, this, this person's like me. Like you, you invite your customers into your world. You, you acknowledge 'em and take, take some time and time is, you know, the best precious commodity to acknowledge them. And the rewards you'll get is that people will be blown away. They'll engage more, they'll, you'll convert more customers ultimately. Um, and most importantly, you'll you'll start to turn customers into super fans.  

Kristin:    00:43:57    Yeah. And you know, I get messages, these video messages from other people sometimes through, through Bonjour or through Loom and a couple of different apps. And even if it's somebody who, you know, it's one thing if it's like a big celebrity or something, like there's a, who is it? There's a comedian, I'm forgetting her name right now, but she has, you can text her and she'll actually answer your text messages. So there's like that shock value when it's some kind of big celebrity answering your message or answering you with a video. But then it also has the same impact if it's, you know, just anybody. Like, if anyone sends you a message, like if it's a family member or a friend or something like that, it's always more personal and endearing. And I, I also like it because there's so much focus in the remote industry and in the digital nomad community on passive income and automated income and automations and to be able to have a business that does everything for you so that you can just post up on the beach somewhere. But can you explain why that is a facade and why that is not a sustainable business model in 2020 and beyond?  

Matt:     00:45:15    Here's the thing, it doesn't build relationships like true relationships. Yeah. So, so, so humans are social creatures. You know, we evolved in communities and we, we are built for communities and relationships. Like to our very core now the last few years we've all chased automation <laugh> online and we've all gone for scale. And as we've scaled, the only way there's been able to do that is to remove the human side from it. You know, go back 50 years and your parents would go into the baker and the baker would know them by name, he would serve them up the bread. It still happens today, you know, in Australia we have a massive coffee culture, you know, everyone has their local barista that they will follow if they move coffee shops. They know your name. They, you know, spend two minutes with you in the morning, ma making you smile.  

Matt:     00:45:58    They remember your coffee order, you know, and, and it's a beautiful thing now online to Chase scale. We've dropped that and there's, there's a study done recently where it's saying that, you know, 85% of consumers actually want to connect with people in brands again. And I think it's gone full circle where people have, you know, done this for a while and they've been like, oh, this is great, everything's scalable. And now people are going, hang on, hang on a minute, I'm kind of not lonely, but you, but you're not having relationships. Like, like, like I look at that. So it's, we are a tech company, I think we must use 70 to a hundred different softwares and services to keep us running. And out of all those, there's probably about five that I, that I wouldn't leave because like, I love them. Yeah. And they're a great company and great team.  

Matt:     00:46:44    And there's other ones that like, I love the product, however, it's compared to marketplace. If someone came along and said, well here's a, here's a slightly better product, you know, and we'll look after you and we'll do everything for you. You know, I'm poachable from those, whereas, whereas there's other companies where someone come along and say, Hey, look, will you have a slightly better product? You know, and I'd be like, yeah, that I hear you, but I'm committed to this co to to this company and this team, and they've done so much for me and they'll help me out to that. I'm, I'm not going anywhere. You know, so  

Kristin:    00:47:12    Yeah.  

Matt:     00:47:13    So from a company's point of view, it's about, again, fans, it's about advocacy, it's about keeping customers for life. Um, for the actual consumers point of view, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's much more enjoyable to, to make connections with companies, to, to understand that you can trust companies, to know there's humans behind it. It so that if if things hit the fan, you can, you can actually get in touch with the person. They'll be like, yeah, yeah, we're here to help. Which, you know, customer service has not done a great job of companies online have not done a great job of, and so if you start this now, and I can guarantee you like, like Twitter, even if everyone did it, most of 'em wouldn't be very genuine or very good at this. Like, you can stand out if you care about customers, if you really do, if if they do matter to you, you'll stand out.  

Matt:     00:47:54    And for Digital Nomads, by the way, we, we've like, we've like considered, I'm still thinking about like hiring someone to travel the world and send videos to customers for us. So any, our team who goes on holiday, I'm like, I'll just pay you to send videos while you're there because if you are, if you are in Paris or you know, in front of the Louvre or, or, or, or town of pizza or, or you are in a jungle in Vietnam, if you send a video there, customers are like, this is amazing. So you have the ultimate opportunity, like content-wise to be like, Hey, I'm just on a weekend out here in the middle of nowhere. Um, like I, I was doing one Sydney the other day in the mountains and I almost stepped on Tiger Snake while I was filming someone a video. And I just carried on and I was like, check this out. And, and I almost, the person was like, that is the most Australian thing I've ever seen in my life. But, but you do this and people are just like, this is a, this is a unique experience. Like I'm in, they're like, I don't care what you do, what you sell, like I'm in.  

Kristin:    00:48:51    Yeah. And it's real life. And I am admittedly really that this is what my weakness is, automations and processes. And it's one of the things that I've been trying to work on because I don't want a completely passive business because I think I would be depressed again if I didn't have that connection with people. But I totally could improve from my business model I've had for like over 10 years, which is one-on-one consulting to helping more people with different kinds of digital products. And that's what I've been in the process of doing. But I've definitely sat in front of my MailChimp and been like, I don't wanna send out a newsletter, I wanna just email each person directly and be like, hi, like who are you? You joined my email list, it's nice to meet you. I'm Kristin. Like, what can I do for you?  

Kristin:    00:49:44    Like a normal person, like a normal conversation. And so yeah, this video, sending people like a one minute video, it's great because it's like FaceTiming them but asynchronously, like you don't need to do a video meeting or a Zoom meeting or, or a phone call. Like you can just send them a message or a video that they can open at their convenience and they can respond back and then, yeah. People who have messaged with me know that I do that too. So, and I love what you said, that you could do this to stand out in your industry. So you can do this if you are a solopreneur or a freelancer or if you're part of a Fortune 500 company. Like there's no specific person who can do it or who can not do it. Like everyone can use this kind of technology and it's really easy to use. So that's super cool. And I've been talking about, um, how video and audio is obviously like the future, but also the present, you know, everything from Amazon Alexa and all the voice activated stuff to also asynchronous video. I think this is the way we go.  

Matt:     00:50:50    I think, I think the role of process is to do the stuff that you as a human, that, that, that doesn't need a human touch so that you're freer to do the stuff that needs a human touch.  

Kristin:    00:50:59    Yeah, yeah, yeah, because there's also a lot of that too. Let's talk a bit more about the operational side of running a remote company, because you've built your company to have remote employees on five different continents in 15 countries. Is that right?  

Matt:     00:51:16    No, 50. So 15 team, five continents, six countries.  

Kristin:    00:51:21    Okay. And right now there's a lot of buzz online because millions of people started working remotely, overnight. So what are some of the pitfalls that you stumbled into or maybe jumped into initially without knowing it, um, when you started operating remotely? And what are kind of the biggest warnings and tips that you would give people who are starting to work remotely for the first time? Yeah, so  

Matt:     00:51:50    That's pretty much one thing I would say. I, I be fair, this is exasperated if you work in a global remote team, um, time zones, those one out. But it's, it's, it's, it's communication. So if you can solve communication and obviously processes is important, but if you can solve communication, then you are 90% of the way there. And what I mean by solve it is it's very easy in an office to turn around and just chat someone, um, dispute resolution, differences of opinion on, on services, products, offering, whatever. Um, you solve really, really quickly. You know, if you are, if you are a leader and you have a team, you can see if team members have disputes, you can jump in and help out and kind of mediate, et cetera. And when I say disputes, we love disputes, you know, like we disagree on stuff all the time and that's how we build better products.  

Matt:     00:52:36    Like this is the point. Like I'm, I'm quite stubborn, but my team will beat me down and be like, you're wrong. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm wrong. Fair enough. Um, now when you are remote and you're in different time zones, these, these disputes can hit points where one of your teams are asleep, one's awake, and to somebody can sit there for like eight hours waiting for response. And a couple of things are those team members need to understand, like needs to be able to compartmentalize. So switch off from one thing, get on with the day, understand team members won't get back immediately. Um, even, I mean, sa saying that like 5:00 AM is normal, start off me and then night you calls at 8:00 PM is normal as well. And the team is, we've, we've changed our work hours to fit this and this is because of communication.  

Matt:     00:53:19    So, you know, the team will take time off in the day with their kids, et cetera to make sure they can be there either end of the spectrum, which is actually really beneficial. Um, I think, you know, we love Slack, but maybe rather than, rather than writing 15 paragraphs of, of Slack responses, maybe hold five and hop on a phone on a, on a phone call or Zoom call for literally five minutes <laugh> when your person's awake. And, and trust me, it's a lot easier. I think one of the challenges, so video's obviously amazing and like getting in touch, you have to keep communication up.  

Kristin:    00:53:52    Oh. So how do you guys operate across borders? Do you use Slack? Do you use Bonjoro to send messages to each other? Like what do you guys use? Yeah,  

Matt:     00:54:00    So Slack, the team lives in Slack. Uh, super useful. We tend to like, I think with Slack there's many different ways to use it. So we'll, we'll set up. We have channels, channels for kind of, uh, both divisions. So like marketing versus product. We'll also have channels for, for team. Like we have a southern hemisphere channel like in Northern Hemisphere channel, like whoever's awake, which is just all about general chat and culture. Um, and then, you know, the way we build products and build processes, we'll have disposable channels for projects that we're working on. So we actually do a lot of our project management in Slack. So for instance, you know, if we new feature, we'll invite everyone the very beginning it'll be a couple of us and then designers will come in and then tech will come in and then the whole team will come in and test stuff and then we'll just delete the channel when it's all done. Um, works really well. Nice video a lot. And so one, one of the things with, with comms and what I'm trying to get us to a point of, which is hard for us even as a video company, is how do you turn on Zoom for like two minutes?  

Kristin:    00:54:56    Oh, I know what you should use. You should use Yac. Yeah, so I have the founder of Yak,  

Matt:     00:55:03    YAK 

Kristin:    00:55:04    Down on my podcast. Yeah, they're actually out of Orlando. Okay, so right down the street from your brother. Yeah. And they're helping me set up their system too. 'cause they're doing a special deal right now because of the coronavirus and everyone needs help. But basically it's asynchronous audio and video. So you have it set up on your desktop. So you have little circles like avatars with people's photos. Yeah. And you can just click on their face and send them an audio, a video or a screen recording with you as well. So it's like sending a QuickTime video mixed with a screen recording mixed with a WhatsApp voice message all in one. And you can just have it on your desktop. So when you wake up you're like, oh, I have two messages from people. And, and that, I mean, that saves so much time. So I've test, I've tested it out and I'm on board with that too.  

Kristin:    00:55:56    I feel like my life is about to get a lot easier 'cause I have Yak on one side and, and now ro on the other and actually had a mutual separation with a freelance contractor this month over communication basically. So I am not perfect <laugh>, I make mistakes and yeah, I think that we just didn't have good enough communication. We were using a project management system, but you know, we just needed to communicate better. And so the quality of the work that this person was submitting to me was subpar that a lot of mistakes were being made like over and over again on the same project or the same episode of, of what she was working on. And then also I wasn't prompt enough with giving feedback. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with the instructions. And so having a good resources and tools and apps for communication can be the difference between thriving with your team and firing people and starting over. So, and also you have people working in all different time zones. You have in the Philippines, you have South Africa, probably Australia. So where are you sourcing these people? Because a big question people have is like, how do I even build a remote team? Where do I hire from? Where do I find the talent or affordable people to work with me? So what did you guys do?  

Matt:     00:57:20    Again, the caveat here is like, I've traveled a lot, quite global mindset anyway, so I don't, I don't really get the whole border country thing. Like, to me, people are just people now. I like, I I don't mean that like, like truly so, so all our staff are like exactly the same treat, the same, same culture. Um, we, we usually look people who are best for the, for the role. So I don't, I don't care where someone lives, like I couldn't care less. Like, you know, generally, generally they speak, they speak, speak English, uh, I could just about do French or Spanish is terrible. But, um, as long as everyone communicates together, you know, for us. So we have quite a, we have, we're very strong culture. We're very transparent, very easygoing, like we muck around a lot. And so try people who fit that culture and are amazing at the, their, their role.  

Matt:     00:58:09    I couldn't find those in my, you know, like it very hard to find the city. I'd have to get the recruitment involved. When you, somebody expands the world, they come in through like ex customers, they come in through like people meet at events. So I can tell you I have a back list of probably like 30 to 50 people that I've met and been like, I'd unlike this person to work for us at the time. That make like, again, like as a startup and, and you're growing, you obviously have roles that you hire for as, as you grow. But I met people and I'm like, when we get to a certain stage, this person's coming on board and I like, and, and, and they don't have a choice. <laugh> like I will, I'll offer them ruthlessly and generally people do join us. So, so we just, we just find people, we meet people for own networks.  

Matt:     00:58:47    We've done a really good job of that. Um, and then when we bring people in, 'cause we're pretty strong on culture, we then start to get referrals that come through. And because, uh, our team's already across the world and our customer base. So we're here in Australia, our customer base is seven, like 95% not in Australia. Maybe, maybe maybe even more now. So, and we're talking to everyone all the time. So everything just seems to come through that for us. Uh, if I didn't have that, how would I find people? We've used, we used recruitment once for a very specific role in London. Um, and that actually paid off quite well. Um, but it was a very, very specific role that we had to go for and we vetted a lot of people and it's worked for us. So would, I would be open to that. Again. It is an expensive option. Um, I dunno, I dunno whether we're lucky or whether it's just because our, our attitude is already open that people come in.   

Kristin:    00:59:38    I think it's, I think it's just your relationships and community. And I would say to anybody who's on the other end, who's listening, who's looking for a remote job, this is something that I've said before, but start with your personal network. Start with your personal network. Start with your professional network. Just tell people what you do. Tell people what you're looking for. Ask if they know of anyone or ask if they know of opportunities. And you'll probably never have to submit a resume on an online job board if you just exhaust your network. Because everybody knows hundreds, if not thousands of people. Just go through everybody on your Facebook friends list, on your Instagram list, on your LinkedIn, you know, and then if that doesn't work, go to Twitter. Go to Twitter, go to Reddit, Twitter, that's like a new one. No, just kidding. <laugh>, go to, uh, forums, go to places where people hang out who are interested in the same things or in the same industry. And there's even digital nomad job forums or remote work, um, online forums, Facebook groups. I mean, I really think that the big conglomerate job sites are useful, especially for companies that are trying to fill a lot of jobs at once, especially tech jobs or like a lot of jobs in one sector. But yeah, I think that just relationships and friendships and networking, whether it's online and in real life, can work for both sides. The company, the employers, and the employees and freelancers.  

Matt:     01:01:01    So, you know, so again, like going back to what's good to come out of this global situation. So when we hired, I'll be honest, like I would be biased towards people who've had remote working experience. Now the way that we do it, we actually have like shared office. So we have, we work, we work in, in, in, in like on hot desks in London, Australia, and the Philippines. Um, some of the team members take advantage of that, some of 'em don't. Uh, again, for the, I think for the more extroverted team members, it's a sanity check to get, get into an office, um, also somewhere where those local teams can get together for lunch and stuff. Um, but we'd always look for people who've who've got remote working experience because it is a learned skill. I think I am an extrovert a hundred percent. So it took me a long time to get more productive at it and learn how to do it.  

Matt:     01:01:46    Now, the fact that ever now it's like everyone in the world is going to have remote working experience, so suddenly our hiring pool or, or, or, or, or the chance of success has just like gone up like massively for me. So, you know, I, I look at that and I'm like, this is great. Yeah. Because I know people have been to that training, that learning curve, and we've had people where they've tried it with us and, and it, it hasn't been, been right for them, you know, in the past. Which, which is, which is fair enough.  

Kristin:    01:02:10    That is wild to think about that. I, I wrote an article recently about what the world will look like when there are 1 billion remote workers. And we have that now. Basically, I mean, I wrote about how there would be no traffic and there would be less offices and this whole like, lifestyle shift and now all of a sudden everyone, like there is no traffic outside. Everybody's working from home. It's under not the best circumstances, but I think that as humans we're really adaptable and we'll come out of it better. But it's really surreal to think that hundreds of millions of people potentially now have remote work experience and everybody knows that they don't even need to put it on their job application anymore. <laugh> like any company looking for remote employees, they're like, well, everybody has now worked from home or like, you know, probably the majority of people or studied from home will have all of this entire, um, generation of young people who have now done remote learning. And it's just, that's the new normal now. So it's such an interesting time. So I have one more question for you on the how, how to create a remote company culture and then we'll jump into the lightning round and you can go hiking.  

Matt:     01:03:22    Sounds great.  

Kristin:    01:03:23    Uh, so how do you do that? So okay, once you have a remote company or you have remote employees and you're, let's say you're communicating well, things are going well. How does a company, even if it's a small business, how do they create some kind of culture when they have never met any of the people face-to-face potentially.  

Matt:     01:03:43    Yeah. So one thing I'd actually suggest here is that I do think you should meet your face-to-face. So you save money on office space, spend that money on plane flights. It's very simple. So we, we would always get together. So the whole team was supposed to be, well, no, not the whole team. Half the team is supposed to be here right now this week <laugh> and uh, last Sunday everyone was flying out Sunday evening from the uk the Philippines and the States. And then the Sunday, uh, Australia imposed the two week, uh, isolation ban and we're like, well that, that kills that idea. Um, so we fly team members to meet up. We, like last year we went to Scotland and Edinburgh, uh, for a week together. The year before. We, we did that here in the middle of, of the bush in Australia. I think we'll do one in the states at some point.  

Matt:     01:04:25    I I think there's a point when you have to break bread. My advice would be get someone over in the first few months and we've, and we've, and we've not done this before and it's been a mistake. Um, I think as soon, as soon as you know, that you are committed to that person, obviously that there's a probation period to balance here. As soon as you know, you are committed to that individual get together, fly them out a if they're not from your country, they'll like love it and they'll tell their friends about it and they'll be like, oh my God, this is amazing. I get to go to, you know, Australia or, or the UK or or wherever you are in the world. Um, you know, like some of our Philippines teams have never left the Philippines and, and the it's Craz, huh? So you do that, it's an amazing show of confidence.  

Matt:     01:05:05    It gets you in, you, you get to break bread and you get to chat and you get to meet different members of the team who they probably aren't working with. So, you know, tech guys might be marketing people, et cetera. If that means if you have conflicts and stuff, that everyone's happy to have those hard conversations 'cause they've, 'cause they know each other and they trust each other and and they understand each other. Um, there is a part of communication. Doesn't matter how good probably video VR gets, you know, you need to share food together. I think,  

Kristin:    01:05:29    Yeah, I have friends that that work for remote companies and they just rave about their company's culture and getting to go to retreats in like Malta and Spain. Yeah. And the companies still save money because of their overhead. Yeah. So they're saving money on overhead and then they're increasing morale and they're improving communication and bonding between the different employees and having fun at the same time.  

Matt:     01:05:56    So I think otherwise treat all employees the same. If you've got outsource guys in Vietnam or girls, like treat the same as your people in the states. Like, I mean this is, this is a general culture thing. I think everyone's equal, I think be as transparent with everyone, even if culturally like you'll find some countries culturally have very much kind of like boss like employee ethic. You, you can break that. Like it's, it's people are people. Um, we then do things like everyone who joins the company gets to design themselves a custom bear suits. We like bearing as a branding and we get these extremely extravagant like things made by these old grannies in the north of England and shipped around the world. Um, you know, if if they have kids we get better suits done for their like little kids and stuff as well.  

Matt:     01:06:38    Um, and then we do, you know, we do monthly standups where we to date, just about to manage this, get the whole team together on a call and you know, with time zone somebody's always got coffee and someone's always got wine. And when we do those, but those are, you know, we get the whole business. We, we open up the whole business, tell everyone what's good, what's bad. It's obviously a lot about culture as well, but it's getting everyone on the journey together. So I mean, the caveat here is like we would do that anyway if we were in, in the same country. So we carry on business as usual even though people aren't in the same country. You know, we encourage different teams in d different countries to get together each Monday as well. You know, even if people are remote, like, like the guys in London will get together on a Monday in London and go for breakfast together, you know.  

Matt:     01:07:19    Oh nice. Um, actually hard of us to do it in Australia 'cause our more remote team members are quite far away. But we'll try to get together once a month and go for lunch. Yeah. Um, the Philippines, the guys there, people have budgets. We, we give team budgets to get together where they can, those that can't who are more isolated, we give them budgets for other things. Uh, do Christmas gifts. Like it's, it's not that different to, to what you would do for a team if you have a good culture anyway in your own country. Yeah. Um, the main d the, the main thing is like fly people fly 'em out. Um, you don't have to do everyone at once 'cause that can be disruptive and it can be a challenge, but fire 'em out. Fly out different team members different times just so that everyone, you've got a flight a year to start with. And then I, I think two fights a year is really good. Um, let, let 'em go, go and hang out with each other. They don't even have to come to you. Yeah. You know, they can just hang out with people who are not even in their department and just go and like, stay with them. We actually, whenever we do it, most people stay with other people in their houses. We don't put 'em up in hotels, they hang out with us.  

Kristin:    01:08:13    That's interesting.

Matt:     01:08:14   You know, and they hang out with the family and they, and that. But again, we were very close culture, we we're kind of a family anyway, so it works for us. Um, it's the best way to onboard people 'cause everyone gets to know you like truly.  

Kristin:    01:08:25    Yeah, those are great ideas. Just get, give people money to go to a coffee shop and hang out, have lunch work together. Let them go to the same coworking space in the same country and keeping in touch so that people can meet up even if it's not an official company retreat or a site visit. Great tips. Yeah. Okay, well let's jump into the lightning round and we'll start off with your favorite morning beverage.  

Matt:     01:08:56    The coffee that I've been drinking as we've been having this call. 

Kristin:    01:08:59    Iced  or hot <laugh>  latte.  

Matt:     01:09:01   Hot, hot for the morning.  

Kristin:    01:09:04    Dairy milk or alternative milk.  

Matt:     01:09:07    I like both. I generally do do dairy, but I, sometimes I'll do almond milk or soy just 'cause I like the taste.  

Kristin:    01:09:13    I'm a coconut almond person. That's what I had this morning. Um, this is a tough one, but everybody asks me so I get to ask you, what's your favorite place you've ever traveled to?  

Matt:     01:09:26    My heart tends to lie in two places, I'll be honest. Uh, I do think Australia, um, I love the country and I've, I've seen so little of it the other places. Scotland. Scotland is, is, it's, I know it's western, but it's, it's, it's, it's an unexplored gem. And if you go to the Heide and the Shetlands and the Orkneys, it's, it's beautiful.  

Kristin:    01:09:47    Scotland's been on my list forever. I've heard so many great things about it and I just keep slipping through my fingers. I had Gavin Bell on the podcast. He was one of my first guests and he's a yeah, entrepreneur from Scotland, from Edinburg. So, uh, I'll get there soon. Um, what do you use for your wifi source while traveling?  

Matt:     01:10:08    Uh, just mobile. So I, I specifically am on a plan here where it's like, we'll pay $5 a day Australian to just carry on as if we were here. Um, so we do a lot of work remote. I will work from different offices around, around, around, around the world. Take my wife with me as as as we go through each year. Um, so we tend to work remote a lot, but wifi, mobile, daily connection, it's pretty good. It's pretty good these days.  

Kristin:    01:10:34    So you're using it international, you're using your Australian sim card in foreign countries?  

Matt:     01:10:38    Yeah, it's so much easier because I don't, it's a change numbers and call people, et cetera. Um, but the, but there are more plan, there's more more plans here, especially if you like if you're from Europe, most plans now have amazing international things because everyone travels a lot. People go different countries. Australia's really good at this because people travel a lot here. Um, states I'm, I'm unsure of, you know.  

Kristin:    01:11:00    Yeah. It's more expensive. Yeah. Um, what is one restaurant or attraction or place or neighborhood that you would recommend in Sydney  

Matt:     01:11:10    If you've never been here before then? Head up to Man Lake. So you take a ferry from the Sydney, uh, from the Sydney Harbor, you go past the opera house, you land there, there's beaches, there's an amazing national park there full of wildlife as well. Um, go to Manley. That's, that's what living in an Australian city is all about.  

Kristin:    01:11:28    That's where I lived when I was in Sydney. I loved it there. And unfortunately this was before I was making videos, so I have a bunch of photos, but no video of what it was like to live there. But it is a stunning, amazing, pleasant place to be.  

Matt:     01:11:44    That's awesome.  

Kristin:    01:11:46    Um, what is one travel hack you use to save money?  

Matt:     01:11:50    Um, go, go local, eat local. I mean, I will jump in, eat street food and I know some people are like, you shouldn't do that. But, uh, it's great <laugh>. It's the cheapest way to go. Avoid, avoid all resorts at all costs.  

Kristin:    01:12:02    That's true. Just don't do it. Go local.  

Matt:     01:12:05    Go local. Yeah.  

Kristin:    01:12:07    And how can people connect with you and also test out Bonjoro and get a free trial. I know we'll have a link in the show notes, but where can people go to find you the Papa Bear of Bonjoro and test out your product?  

Matt:     01:12:22    So if I'm me, go to LinkedIn and type in Papa Bear and I think there's maybe three of us. I'm the one in the bear suit, <laugh>. It's pretty easy. Um, if you wanna reach out and connect, like, like please do, like I had a lot of help from other founders and people getting to where I am. If you'd like any advice on remote work or, or if you'd like to, um, reach out because you you wanna work with us, please, please, please do. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. Um, if you wanna try Bonjoro, get a Bonjoro hop on board. It's, it's free for 14 days. Um, anyway, you will get a video from one of my team. Um, if you sign up at about six in the morning, Australia at a time, you might get one from me. Um, and you'll get to see what it's like firsthand and if you respond, whoever you respond to will be the person that you're actually talking to.  

Kristin:    01:13:00    Great. And get ready guys. 'cause I'm about to start increasing my volume of videos. <laugh> <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:13:07    Yeah. Before you go, I do wanna say I like, I listened to some of the other podcasts that you were on, and one of the things we didn't get to talk about was how you met a lot of your mentors and people that have helped you in business because you just emailed them or you reached out to people you didn't know and asked for a coffee meeting or, um, asked for advice or I'm sure you delivered value in some way. But, um, if you wanna speak to that at all, for people who are maybe feeling isolated right now and they're not sure how to get started on their journey, whether that is to create their own business or to find a mastermind group or to find a remote job, do you have any words of encouragement for, for people to just talk to strangers?  

Matt:     01:13:52    Yeah, like I, I I, people are good buy and by people are good and they're helpful and people love to help. Say, I used to hit up like pretty big CEOs here, um, and just say, Hey, can I catch you for coffee Now if, if, if you're a student, you have a golden ticket. If you're a student, you have an absolutely golden ticket where you can say, I'm a student, I'm looking to let, and everyone, everyone helps students. Um, to be frank, honest, if anyone hit me up and they're like, look, I'm, I'm looking to start a business, I've heard about you can't have a chat. It doesn't happen very often. A lot of people won't do it. So when it happens, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, like it's fine. Um, yeah, every single successful person has had help getting there. No one's done it on their own.  

Matt:     01:14:29    Um, if you don't ask, you won't get though. And then guarantee, most people who I say hit me up on LinkedIn won't do it. So just do it and do it to anyone. You'd be very surprised. And often the the bigger and more famous a person, the the less people would do it, the more likely they are to apply to you. Um, just, yeah, buy mccoffee, have a chat. The the main is like, make them know that you want help and do it. Don't, you know, if you don't do it, if you're trying get, like, if you're trying to get investment, don't pretend that you, that you want help off someone, you know, if you want help, right then I'll, they'll see through it. Yeah, if you want investment, ask invest, tell 'em you want investment. You know, like, like, like be be legit, be real and you'll, you'll everyone will get back.  

Matt:     01:15:09    Like, so say most people will get back to you. I, I I, I had so few people ever not reply and, and, and if they didn't reply, then I hit him up again. And they generally got back the second time and they were like, we had, we had this, we had this guy, we had one, one of our interns that, one of my favorite interns who was a, who was a Nepalese guy. Um, and he was, he'd just come over here into Australia, he was 18 and he would not leave me alone. And he's like, can I come and do an internship with you and just would not stop? And I was like, look, you're, we don't really have space right now. We don't have the time because we, we were pretty, like we were, we were pretty busy pretty early on. He just wouldn't leave me alone. And one day I'm like, well, yeah, you're gonna have to just come in. He, I, I think he turned up and I was like, fine, hang around. And then like, to this day, like love him. Like he just wouldn't stop. And I'm like, he, he is gonna go so far. He  

Kristin:    01:15:54    Works for you.  

Matt:     01:15:55    He, so he, he, he interned with us. He, while he was studying in Australia, um, he's now gone into I think a different area like finance, but like, okay. But he just wouldn't give up and he had so much energy eventually I was like, well, well we can't not give you a job to be honest. I don't care what yeah. What, uh, your skills are. I'm not even gonna look at your cv. Like what do you wanna do?  

Kristin:    01:16:19    Patience and persistence. And you make a good point about students because I'm giving multiple free talks this year to college students. And as soon as we hang up this call, I have a two hour interview that I'm sitting for, for college researchers. So anytime, anytime college students or research students or PhD students contact me for help, I help them because I know what it's like to be a college student and be working on projects and I have a lot of like empathy for that. So yeah, I say yes to people all the time. I say no to people that spam or that are sending like a virtual assistant to copy and paste me an email and they're sending it to a thousand people. But if it's a real email from a real person, then I'll definitely respond and usually say yes. So great advice Matt. Thank you for coming on and sharing about your travel journey and your entrepreneurial journey and about all of these products and tips and resources that people can use to enhance their own remote work journeys. Stay safe during this pandemic and I hope you have a great hike with your family today. No  

Matt:     01:17:33    Problem, Kristin. Thanks for having me. It's been, it's been awesome.  

Kristin:    01:17:36    I'll see you in a Bonjoro and thank you guys all for listening and we'll catch you next week on Badass Digital Nomads. 

Kristin:    01:17:59    BP is working to bring more lower carbon energy to the UK, like designing two hydrogen plants and we are keeping oil and gas flowing from the North Sea. It's, and not all, that's how BP is backing Britain. While today we're mostly in oil and gas, we increase the proportion of our global annual investment of wet into our lower carbon and other transition businesses from around 3% in 2019 to around 23% in 2023. bp.com/andnotall.